Joe Fosco, I take your word Turk was their an old Taylor Street disciple (him too) turning against the Taylor Street Legend Mooney. There is no way Turk went their and did not have Butch Petrocelli with him. Someone Turk relied on heavily for “heavy work” throughout the years. Alot of people don’t know this but the “Wild Bunch” had its orgins during Mooney’s era as Top Boss. It’s not far fetched that Mooney had access to these “young turk” killers by 1974/75 if he wanted to over through the Obrien/Cerone regime they (The Wild Bunch) would of been dependable. I know Butch Petrocelli idolized Mooney. As alot of Taylor Street kids growing up in the 40s, 50s, and 60s did.

I do not rule out that Turk had Butch with him in some capacity on the fatal night. Unfortunately, I cannot confirm or deny it.
Turk was an Outfit loyalist. If the current boss orders a hit on the old boss, the current boss wins.
Several people associated with Aiuppa/Cerone were in on it. We learned from the Spilotro hit that large numbers of killers are assembled in some cases. I simply named the people that I am certain were there.

Thank you.

Nice article, Joe. There’s a wiretap that exists of Mooney referring to Joey O as that ‘that crybaby from Cicero’ or something to that effect. I’ll see if I can find it.

Great article Joe,  Was the F.B.I. actually watching Mooney’s house that night? It would have been almost impossible to kill Mooney with his house under 24 hour surveillance. Makes perfect sense that Auippa & Cerone used Blasi. They could never have gotten Chuckie English to betray Mooney. Never. If Blasi had told Mooney in advance, Mooney still had English, Nicolletti and Caifano at his disposal. The coward Cerone hit Mooney when he was down. Too bad Battaglia, Bucciere, Alderisio, Daddono & DeStefano weren’t around. Let me know your thoughts about the 24 hour surveillance question. 

The thing about Obrien is he would of whacked Cerone just as fast as a Mooney or anyone else for that matter (if you got into the way of his money or was a threat to his regime). Mooney just got caught up in a power struggle and Obrien had the upper hand. The only person loyal to Cerone may have been Lee Magnafichi. Because I could see Johnny DiFronzo putting two in the back of the Bald Eagle’s head if Obrien gave the green light.

Horsey,  Your Hierarchy Chart #1 looks good. Can you post it on this threaad since it pertains to Mooney? Also, here are  a couple minor tweeks. In the Taylor St. Box, make Mooney’s line shorter and right next to it make another line. The Top two lines will read Sam Giancana, Top Boss. The line right next to him will read Paul Ricca, Advisor. Then, for now, eliminate the middle line below Giancana and have two lines instead of three.   On One line put Fiore Bucciere, Capo and on the other line put Sam Battaglia, Capo. Now, in the Elmwood Park Box, put Jack Cerone, Capo.  Under him put Joe Gagliano, Underboss. We’re going to have to find a spot for Anthony Accardo, Advisor and somehow attach him to Elmwood Park. In the North Side/ Rush St. Box put Ross Prio, Capo. Under him put Dominic DiBella, Underboss. In the Cicero Box put Joey Auippa, Capo. Under him put Sam Carlisi, Underboss. In the Chicago Heights Box put Frank LaPorte, Capo. Under him put Al Pillotto, Underboss.

Joe,  Minor Point. When I would see the Nick name Momo used. I thought when it was shortened to Mo it was spelled with only the M and the O. I don’t think it was spelled Moe. That’s the spelling for one of the Three Stooges. I could be wrong and maybe it doesn’t matter.

 https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/19gTjtCrYW9Cowj953oH-bGa1iwjD0s2Hi4gxZzSZXKA/edit?hl=en_US 

Dear Joe,

Please subject the following chart to your most unforgiving scrutiny and report back to your readers A.S.A.P. with a close and careful analysis. 

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1dTkj3d0WWHYwEZSlZYsYqvYuUjpl1teukPSSdAdEjNA/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1
Thank you.

Just to preemptively address any complaints about the sphere of influence JB enjoys in this chart, be advised that it is my understanding that JB was (almost) completely out of it at this point in Outfit history, because of some looming tax case or other. He maintained an open line of communication with Paul and especially Cerone, his young alopecia-ridden protégé. 

Too funny! Thank you.

Alopecia-ridden! LOL

I do not know for sure what the deal was with the FBI car. I was heavily focused on who the shooter was and why.

hilarious! LOL

Horsey,  Good Work. Are You ready?  Okay, so as not to make The Taylor St. Box any bigger, put Paul Ricca, Advisor above Giancana. Put Giancana, Top Boss, right below Ricca and have both names in the center of the Box. Spread out Bucciere & Battaglia because we are now going to add 18 names in three sections of 6 under them. Do not make it look like Giancana did not have direct access to these men. Giancana had direct access to these made men at any and all times. Phil Alderisio, Chuckie Nicoletti, Willie Daddono, Sam DeStefano, Marshal Caifano, Rocky Potenza, Chuckie English, Frank Bucciere, Rocco Pranno, Rocky DeGrazia, Dominic Blasi, Joe Amibale, Turk Torello, Angelo LaPietra, Skids Caruso, Joey Glimco, Frank Ferraro, James Mirro.    Inside the Elmwood Park Box insert these 6 names:  John DiFronzo, Joe Andriacchi, Joe Lombardo, Lee Magnaficchi, Pete DiFronzo, Willie Messino.    Inside the North Side/Rush St. Box insert these 6 names:  Dominic Brancato, Dominic Nuccio, Jimmy Allegretti, Vince Solano, Joey DiVarco, Rocco Fischetti.    Inside the Cicero Box insert these 6 names:  Joe Ferriola, Joe Amato, Dominic Cortina, Donald Angelini, Rocky Infelise, Bobby Ansani.    Inside the Chicago Heights Box insert these 6 names:  Al Tocco, Dominic Palermo, Anthony Pinelli, Pat Manno, Charley DiCaro, Jimmy Catuara. Now, make a small box and put it next to Taylor St. up on the top to the right of the Box.   Inside the Box put 2 names:  Romie Nappi & Pat Marcy. This is not a complete list but represents about 75% of the made guys. There were probably around 75 total during this time with maybe 225 soldiers working full time under them. This is from where the 300 man estimate comes.  

Ok, this may take a little more time than I have this evening. I’ll work on it, and get back to you tomorrow afternoon. Thanks for the info. ( I knew Joe Amato’s grandkids, by the way. I know next to nothing about him.)

Tony,  I heard the same thing. It would make sense for the Outfit in 1975 to have the power to tell the police to go on break.  Actually,  it would have been the Oak Park Police. But, what about the F.B.I.? Maybe the police had a 24 hour watch on Mooney’s house but not the F.B.I. There’s no way the Outfit could have ordered the Feds to do anything. The Outfit had to work around when the Feds car was there and not there.

Good Point about Turk Torello & Dominic Blasi.  Concerning the other Taylor St. men still alive in 1975 : Chuckie English, Chuckie Nicoletti & Marshall Caifano could not be trusted by Auippa/ Cerone to betray Giancana.  Auippa/Cerone were smart and they knew who would work with them.  Blasi demonstrated genuine loyalty from the beginning and Turk had already become close with Auippa.  Each Top Boss used Top Capos for the Job.  Cerone used his own Capo DiFronzo and Auippa used his close partner Torello, the Capo of 26th St.   I believe in 1975, Marshall had already left Chicago.  For that matter, so had Frank Bucciere.  Two years later, They killed Chuckie Nicoletti.  But, the guy who surpised me the most as far as surviving 10 years after Mooney got killed was Chuckie English.  I’m amazed he wasn’t killed earlier. Aren’t you?

The nickname for my name, Joseph, is not spelled Jo. In addition, I will continue to spell Joe with an ‘e’, regardless of the fact that one of the Three Stooges, who was named Joe, spelled it with an ‘e’. lol

But there is an ‘E’ in Joseph, but there is no ‘E’  Momo. Don’t mind me, I used to seeing it spelled Mo, that’s all. In fact, that was my nickname in the Fraternity in College. All the Italian guys took the nick names of Outfit guys. I think your book is gonna be great. I would be honored to help you in any way possible.    

I Googled “Moe Giancana” and found 3-pages of search results, offering media reports from newspapers, magazines such as Life, FBI reports, rap sheets, all indicating the spelling as M-o-e. David Demaris who wrote the book called Captive City, used official law-enforcement documentation to write it, spells the name as “Moe.” However, I found a few internet results with the name spelled as “Mo.” At this point, I would say the spelling is optional, based on preference. With the only person who could truly settle the matter dead, we may never know how he spelled it. Since it is too close to call, I will save myself the trouble and leave it as is, Moe.
Thank you for offering to help with the book.

man i get everyone talking again and joe’s writing again and i don’t even make the chart as an associate im a wannabe in cyberspace too ahhhh.  No but in regards to HF’s question bout the wiretap its hilarious he’s talking to his brother or cousin Paul or Peter i think he’s name was, and he says something like “if obrien comes to you crying about being broke don’t listen to a word he says, we gave him all of Cicero he can’t make any money there he aint gonna make it anywhere.”  I think it was the “lil” “Al” wiretap that picked that up.  Also Joe i just got done going through this with my dad the other day and i said well i honestly think the best bet was Spilotro cuz im thinking English woulda been toast without him and my exact words were and Blasi was to loyal and woulda been naked without him.  Soon this article made me pop outta my seat. 
         You know what i think regarding the Don wondering bout the G is this, theres a story about how Spilotro had figured a way to get into Sam’s house without the feds seeing him way early on.  During Mclellan and his contempt trial etc.  It’s totally possible that others especially Moe’s main guys were made aware of this pathway or route from Moe himself or Spilotro solving the visibility problem, that also shows the reason for the use of the suppressor, and it sounds like they entered and exited one by one.  Might explain why the eagle was perched seeing if s$%t had hit the fan.  Great article Joe, the true acting boss of outfit info and literature.

Letemrde,  Mooney was actually talking to Frank ‘Strongy’ Ferraro. The dialogue supposedly came from a wiretap called  ‘Little Al’. Roemer mistakenly calls Frank Ferraro the Underboss of the entire Outfit.  He was way off like usual.  Ferraro was a made guy Giancana inherited when he became the Top Boss. Your explanation of a secret way to get into Mooney’s house unseen does have merit. Very good point.

Joe, it is almost hard to believe that someone would share this type of information with you. I am assuming your friend that told you about this was involved in some way or was there, am I right? How else does someone know intimate details of an Outfit murder

Horsey,  Very good. One little tweek. Make the boxes of the underbosses of the 4 crews a little smaller so they’re not the exact same size as the Capos. Also, make some kind of note that the chart is NOT complete but gives a good idea of the structure and flow of power. I think the chart is excellent. Is there a way to show the chart so everyone can see it. I believe Joe likes it. Why wouldn’t he? It’s the best chart ever done about the Outfit and it makes ANP look good.

Joe,  Do you like the chart and is there a way to show it more visibly?

Thanks, but you’re the visionary behind it and deserve more than half the credit. I think Joe can convert the chart to PDF format and then post it, provide a formal link to it, or otherwise provide access to it however he chooses.

The Don, I have to say that there were a few surprises on this chart. Peter D in Elmwood Park was a made guy that long ago? Another surprise was Carlisi as an underboss back then. I can’t believe how long some of these guys were around.

Shall we move onto the next one?

The Don, should I name the Nappi / Marcy box something like “1st Ward” etc?

Actually it can be downloaded as a JPEG and displayed as an image. Just go to File –> Download As –> and then select a format.

Horsey,  Remember, back in the 1960′s, Auippa was the Capo of Cicero and Carlisi was his personal underboss ONLY for the Cicero Crew, just like Gagliano was the personal underboss to Capo Cerone ONLY for the Elmwood Park Group.  There was NO UNDERBOSS for the entire Outfit.  Giancana refused to have Cerone be in that position. The closest thing for Mooney, besides Ricca, were HIS two Capos : Bucciere & Battaglia.  Those two Capos within the Extended Taylor St. Crew had tremendous power. As far as Pete DiFronzo, I believe he got made during the early to mid 1960′s. Let’s not move on to the next one until we get more feedback from Joe Fosco. We could do the next one when the article about Lee Magnaficci comes out. 

Yes.  Good Idea.

Rocky Infelise on the chart durinf the Mooney Era…Huh !?!? And Pete DiFronzo Made in the mid to 1960s … Really ? What was Elmwood Park = NYC in Making Guys.

Black Angelo,  I welcome your feedback. I could be wrong about the time period about when a couple guys got made. I’m not perfect. Is that all you can say about the chart? I think the chart is prett y damn good and you know it.  There are 57 guys listed, which is about 75% of total. All we have to do is remove those two names if they got made later. No big deal. Your thoughts?

Amabile is misspelled; Lombardo was with Milwaukee Phil in the mid 60s. I would double check all the spelling of names after realizing amabile was misspelled. I will look at it closer to see what else is questionable.
Pat manno’s son married the daughter of Conrad black’s father’s business partner. Should we put Conrad on the chart? lol
i think the chart has a real potential to be the most accurate chart produced in a long time.

Don and Horsey, I guess its okay to have Rocky I (who was not Made at the time) on their if in fact you name all those Elmwood Park guys under Cerone, because their is no way between 1957-66 alot of those guys where Made. I’m not buying it. 

Willie Messino was Made (even though its rumored Cerone tried to keep him down). I mean you might as well put Joe Lombardi in their.

And I would put Joe Nick under the category that is direct with  Mooney. Because Joe Nick (1957-66) was Taylor Street and partners with Turk and worked directly with him and FiFi Bucceri.

By the way Rocky Infelise may have been Taylor Street also (during that era).

My source on the giancana hit was a made member of the outfit, who is now deceased. He was not on the hit, however, he was highly trusted and informed. he was accurately informed of what took place regarding the giancana hit by the horse’s mouth. he was extremely honest with me about everything he shared with me. He never thought I would publish the material that he gave me and/or caused me. actually, i sometimes wonder if he secretly hoped i would write a book. he occasionally talked about writing a book for his children to publish after his death.

Okay Big Shot,  Come up with 2 names to replace Pete DiFronzo & Rocky Infelice since they very possibly got made in the early 1970′s. And, don’t say Marco.

So I’m a big shot now huh ? U being condescending u friggin ball buster?
 
And according to Nick C… Rocky I was made in 1983. Johnny DiFronzo was Made in the 60s before all those Elmwood Park guys except for Willie.
 
I wonder if Lombardo is on that new chart ? I didn’t really look for him, but cant recall if I saw him. But he would need to be on there to. And NO Marco should not be on the 1957-66 Chart.
 
However he was on the Feds Radar screen by 1968 as a big time before all those Elmwood Park guys (except for Johnny and Willie).
 
Marco was in that 1969/70 book Juice Racketeers… that had the biggest loan sharks and debt collectors in Chicago. So Marco should probably go on the next chart under Cicero-Obrien and Taylor Street.. with Turk-Joe Nick and Butch, Tony Borse etc.

Yes,  I’m bustin’ your balls. If you and I were face to face instead of on this fuckin’ computer, we would be laughing together. Capisce!

Joe,  Not that you need it, but I know who you are talking about and I agree 100% with your posting above me. The person you’re talking about had a very good side to him and almost wanted to repent for certain things in the way a good Catholic would have a desire to confess to a priest.

I agree. No one would understand that he had a good and gentle side.

Horsey,  Please correct the spelling of Joe Shines last name. It’s in the Taylor St. Box.  It should read AMABILE.  Remove Pete DiFronzo from the Elmwood Park Box and insert Eco Coli. Remove Rocky Infelice from the Cicero box and insert Vincent Inserro.  I’m still checking on Joe Ferriola.  It’s possible Black Angelo is correct about him during this time frame.  We’re so used to him being associated with Cicero, that’s it’s hard to imagine anything else.

I am not sure I would put stock in what Nick said about Rock, he was around a long time, but he was a small timer, so maybe he was right. Rock was a big bullshitter, who talked to FBI agents when he got drunk, not even knowing who they were.

Mooney relied on Ferraro more than he relied on Cerone (I suppose that does not say much).

Thanks Joe,  I would say after a couple more minor tweeks, this will be the most accurate chart of the Taylor St. power reign EVER made. I looked at a couple of old charts, and they did not have the understanding of the Power Strucure of the Outfit based upon Street Crews which are Power Bases for Bosses. They did not understand how the Crews worked together in partnership with the Dominent Crew.  That is what makes our chart way better and much more realistic. The power centered around Taylor St., which encompassed the First Ward, and the 4 most powerful made men were Ricca, Giancana, Bucciere & Battaglia. Yes, Accardo was important, but in a minor way compared to that powerhouse. You have the same understanding as me because we had the benefit of having important men explain it over the years to us little by little, question by question, as we went along. There was no ulterior motive behind the explanations.  They were honest explanations not coming from informants.  Agreed? 

Black Angelo,

Good point about Peter D. You’ll see that I was unsure about that, too, if you read my comments from last night. I think Johnny was made back then, though–especially if Willie Messino was made in the late 1940′s, as Joe has stated. (Keep in mind that this chart is through 1966, so, while it may be true that some of these guys were not made in the 50′s, they very well could have been by the mid-60′s. Again, it’s important to realize that the chart represents a period of time, not a “slice” of time.)

One thing, though. Would you mind showing me where Nick Calabrese said that Rocky I was made in 1983? I checked the available literature on the matter and didn’t see anywhere that it was that Rocky I was made in the 80′s. Thanks.

Don’t hesitate to throw names out there with the Don and submit whatever criticism (negative or positive) you have. Thanks.

Done.

…and so everyone knows, the chart is a work in progress. And as we edit it, the link does not change. So when you go to check for changes / updates just click the link that’s already been posted to the threads. Here it is again:

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/19gTjtCrYW9Cowj953oH-bGa1iwjD0s2Hi4gxZzSZXKA/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

BA,  apologies. I checked Jeff Coen/Chicago Tribune’s account of Nick testimony regarding the ’83 induction. He put Jimmy Marcello, Tony Zizzo, Rocky Infelise, John Matassa, Albert Tocco, and “others” there. So, you are correct that Nick out him there. I stand corrected. ~HF

BA, Infelise also had a narcotics arrest sometime in the 1950′s or 60′s. Maybe it took him a while to live it down and convince the top guys he wasn’t still dealing in junk.

Horsey,  Are you sure Nick said that Tocco was made in 1983 or he was attending the ceremony? I would say he was made before 1983. On the chart, you can add Johnny Roselli in the Taylor St. Box, also you can add John Matassa ( Father of Pudgy) in the same box and you can switch Joe Lombardo from Elmwood Park box to the Taylor St. Box. Add Rocco Salvatore to the Taylor St. box. That makes a total of 60 so far which is about 80% of made guys ( Give or take a little).

Fellas i’m impressed with the chart thus far. A few minor changes though like Americo DePietto needs to go under the Taylor Street (or direct with Giancana) and Bucky Ortenzi needs to go under Cicero.

And I was wondering shall we call Elmwood Park (Grand Ave also) since Grand Ave came before Elmwood Park. Also Melrose Park and Cicero could merge as cousins also. (especially after 1966).

Although during the era (57-66) it was clear Teets was seperate of Obrien. Teets direct with Mooney (but based in Melrose Park). And Obrien seperate of everyone (in terms of old school alliances) and boss of Cicero. I also want to put Angelo Bastone somewhere on that chart (Vegas possibly or direct with Mooney).

And an erratic 1950s & 1960s for Infelise coupled with the fact he was selling herion/dope to the African American Street gangs derailed his rise for a long time. Right around 1979 was when Infelise began his rise to power (and he brought Solly D in as his personal aide). After Butch Petrocelli’s death (in or around 1980) Rocky was #2 behind Joe Nick.

And Joe Nick was a prodigy of Mooney’s best friend “Fat Lenny”. Joe Nick was most definatly Taylor Street and partners with Turk for a long time but especially in the era of 1957-66. Your thoughts though on merging Grand Ave/Elmwood Park… and others. And Bucky, Americo and Angelo Bastone should be on the list. The chart looks impressive though to say the least.

Joseph “Crackers” Mendino was one of Giancana’s main guys and a Taylor Street guy…you might consider adding him to that chart guys.  

Joe, great article.  A while back I mentioned that I thought Turk was the shooter and you mentioned Blasi.  I guess we were both right.  I thought Ferriola was with Turk, but Difronzo being there as Cerone’s eyes makes a lot of sense, plus Difronzo’s background as a burglar would help in the sneaking in and not being noticed aspect of the murderous job.  You laid it out in a concise way, nice job. 

Awesome article Joe.  This is Moe Green from Cassino Hana? Anyway, to Rottenpecker when he comes in here ; I have answered your Humanities question in “Difronzo and the Food Industry” artcle! (question was asked in the Radda 2 article) Thanks, SQE

You forgot Merlin Tenderpony! and Ringwalk, and Tony.

A few unrelated things.Yes, surprisingly, Nick apparently pegged Al Tocco as one of the guys that was made that day in 1983. OK, another reader or two have suggested names, which is good in the interest of keeping it a group effort. I think we should make a decision now about who to include on this chart. There’s two ways we can go about it. The first way is we could strictly concentrate on made guys, but this is going to pose problems. Since none of us were there when these guys were made, there are bound to be some disagreements. Case in point: Marco. The second way we can go about it is just to include known Outfit guys, limited to Italians only. This would side-step the problem of debating whether or not certain guys were made, but it might cause the problem of space. There are only so many names we can include before the chart starts to look sloppy and the structure, etc., becomes obscured. There’s no way we can have more than, say, 60 or 70 names and keep things clear. For as “pretty” as it is, Burnstein’s chart doesn’t make any sense at all, which is something I’d like to avoid with ours, otherwise it’s pointless. So, if we decide to just go with known Outfit guys who are Italian, we’re going to have to keep the number of names to a reasonable limit. I wanted to make one thing clear with the chart, if I may. The thick, black arrows running from Giancana’s box to each of the 3-columns of made guys is meant to illustrate that all those Taylor Street guys were direct with him. Not to say that these guys weren’t “under” the two capos; I’m just saying that Mooney had immediate access to them if necessary. Joe Fosco, I have some quick questions: When did Dominic Senese and Charlie Nicosia come into the picture? Should they be included in this chart. If so, where would they go?Thanks.PS: I can’t always get to the business of editing this charts (and the charts to come) during the day, for obvious reasons. Look for the changes and updates in the evening.

I agree completely. We’ll keep the chart at 60 names and that’s it. Maybe a couple more minor tweeks and that’s good enough. I took a chance by suggesting all those made guys because originally we were only going to have about 12 to 15 guys. We’ve now increased it to 60 and that’s more than adequate. No one has ever made a chart about Chicago based upon Street Crew Power.  Every chart always had the Top few Bosses all alone and then smaller groups under them trying to pattern it like New York. This chart is unique because it represents Chicago and the basic skeleton structure which revolves around the Street Crews and is 100 % accurate in that regard alone.  All we need to do now is tweek a couple of the names. Since the Oufit doesn’t post a list of made guys and what year they were made, it’s difficult with some of the names to know exactly when they were made. For example, Rocky Infelice, who by the way, was invited to Accardo’s daughter’s wedding in 1962. He’s also listed in the book Captive City as one of the top 56 guys in Chicago. However, that certainly doesn’t mean he was made between 1957 & 1966. The basis of power within the Outfit has always revolved around the Dominent Crew and the other Crews being partners with it. The Bosses all have power bases in Chicago. It was explained to me many times that a guy like Chuckie English who was direct with the Top Boss in the Extended Taylor St. Crew could almost rival any of the Capos of the other Crews. I say almost, depending upon each individual situation. Some of the Guys direct were also with Ricca. Example: Sammy DeStefano.

HF, formerly known as Horsey F @rt: A more accurate listing of names with LaPorte would be Joe Guzzino, John Roberts, Pete Zarant, babe Tuffanelli (Blue Island), Phil Bacino (Calumet City), Frank Cease/Zizzo (Indiana). These are key people, rather than trying to name everyone.

Don, Good Pts about Rocky. I’ll take your word he was in Captive City as one of the top 56 guys (I have not read that one). He wasn’t in the Juice Racketeers book though in 1970. And he had a conviction for dealing drugs (hard drugs at that). Maybe his wife saved his ass from getting whacked once he was released for that conviction. And he may have got an invite to that Joe B (Accardo) wedding because of his wife… who was Tony Cap’s daughter. Rock was married in 1962 and I believe it was to Ann (nee Capezio). And regardless if Sam DeStefano is Made (I believe 100 % he is Made) he would belong on the list anyhow. Anybody with that criminal history who is 100% Italian and direct with Ricca and Mooney would belong on that list Made or not. Just like the present day Marco DAmico (we can disagree all we want) but anyone with that long of a criminal history, involved in 10 different rackets, who has a crew (by the way) and direct with Johnny DiFronzo or a Turk belongs on next couple of Outfit Flow Charts. Your thoughts ?

Taking a second look at your chart, if you wanted to list the younger generation, which is were I think you are going with this. I would list under LaPorte/Pilotto: Ralph Emery, Armand D’Andrea, Frank Luzi, Joe Costello, Dom Palermo, Frank Franze

Those that I have listed are alleged Outfit from the 1960′s.

i can’t figure out an answer to this and never heard one, why did Tony Bors get clipped.  I know Ferriola wanted it, but what was the reason.  Was Petrocelli involved with it, you just hear he was tough as nails and then he gets flattened.  What was his main racket the usual, juice and bookmaking, where did he mostly move round.  Melrose or up north. 

Oh and Joe what do you think about the unseen route for avoiding surveillance into Sam’s house.  I read this somewhere it wasn’t Roemer’s inflated ego driven drivel book, but somewhere else.

Letemrde, Tony Borse was Taylor Street tough. He personally reminded me of Johnny DiFronzo in personality and hairdo styles except Tony had more of an edge (maybe it was the look he gave). But he could be very friendly. However he was very deadly. He killed ALOT of people for the Outfit going back to 1961-66 and then after he got out of prison (1973-79).

From what I recall he was involved in alot of rackets at the time of his death in May of 79 like gambling, floating crap games, extortion, messing with African American street gangs in the dope trade from Columbia and doing some things down at the Merc (organizing the commodites exchange fellas on shit and collecting debts on the gamblers down their at the CME).

I met him but one of my sources knew him very well. About his death, well He got caught up. Alot of the bosses where honestly believing he could be a potential beefer. Tony Borse had access to Obrien (via Turk) and he told Joey O he thought some of the burglars of Joe B’s home might have been innocent. So that planted a seed.

Butch and Tony didnt get along to much and that had alot to do with both where #2′s one to Turk and one to Joe Nick. Once Turk died that was it for Tony and he knew hit. I gotta say after his gaurdian angel Turk died. Tony didn’t run or hide even when knew he was gonna be hit. It only took a month after Turks death and Tony was found with 5 to the head. But you know he always use to say “Live by the sword you die by the sword”.

And Joe Nick quite frankly was an idiot. Butchie convinced him that Tony was holding back money and if ever he got indicted again would be looking at alot of time in the can and would role on the whole franchise/crew. So Joe Nick had Borse clipped. Only a handful of people liked/loved Joe Nick… the rest feared him. For instance, Frank Sr hated Joe Nick. Marco hated Joe Nick also.

Ironoic story, but in the 1960s Tony had a partner named Angelo Boscarino (they grew up on Taylor together). I was always told Borse had something to do with his own friends (Angelo’s) brutal 1965 murder. Ironic because Angelo’s son Nick is trying to sue Tony Borse’s multi millionaire son Lewis for some 9 million dollars over a lawsuit Lew won for some 12 mill. I laughed when I heard that (for a multitude of ironic reasons). Those two have alot in common. Tony Borse by the way was a MadeGuy.

You know what Black,  I agree with you. Unless Joe vehemently objects, Marco will be on one of these charts in the near future. Probably the one AFTER Cerone went away that will feature Carlisi ( Extended Cicero Crew ) & DiFronzo ( Extended Elmwood Park Crew ). Also, when we eventually get around to it, the chart concerning the structure in 2011. The only person who has ever daid DeStefano wasn’t made was Roemer. No one else has ever said it. Roemer believed DeStefano who was fucking with him. My relative laughed his ass off when I told him what Roemer had said in his stupid book. The first Taylor St. man to get killed after Paul died was DeStefano. What does that tell you about his status? Cerone feared DeStefano. Dyno would have tortured Cerone and killed him if his Bosses had given  him the word. Dyno was crazy but he OBEYED and RESPECTED his Bosses, Ricca & Mooney. My relative compared Dyno to Luca Brasi in the Godfather Movie.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/19gTjtCrYW9Cowj953oH-bGa1iwjD0s2Hi4gxZzSZXKA/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

OK, I inserted a few new names and moved Lombardo  to Taylor Street, which leaves 1 vacancy in Elmwood Park. There is a total of 59 guys with room for 1 more. 
Dom submitted a slew of names for guys under LaPorte. I, personally, am not knowledgeable enough to weigh the stature of these guys against the six already listed in the boxes for the Heights. For that, I will defer to the Don or Joe Fosco.

Also, Black Angelo suggested inserting Bucky Ortenzi under Cicero, and “Americo DePietto” under Taylor Street. Again, we need the Don or Joe F. to weigh in.

(Even though we all have good ideas and intentions, The Don and /or Joe is going to have to moderate some of these suggestions. There has to be some kind of oversight, otherwise we’re going to end up with a Burnstein chart.)

Joe, 

Did you see my questions about Dominic Senese and Charlie Nicosia? I am wondering if they were made during this time period, and if so, where would I put them?

Is Armand D’Andrea a relative of the late-Nick D’Andrea?

updated

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1dTkj3d0WWHYwEZSlZYsYqvYuUjpl1teukPSSdAdEjNA/edit?hl=en_US

Horsey,  Remove Mendino and in his place insert Americo DePietto. Insert In the Elmwood Park box Skippy Cerone. He was a made guy and Cerone’s cousin. Remove Tocco since he wasn’t made yet and insert Phil Bacino. That makes 60. Two Switches and one addition. Then, after you do this, let’s not do anything else and have Joe take a second look at it. Agreed? 

Done and done. Sounds good. 

We’ll see what Joe says, and then move onto the next one.

When these charts are all  done, I might import them into a different program and spruce them up a little bit, keeping all the information exactly as it is. 

Yes

One more thing: I didn’t find a way to insert Matassa in there, unless I put him in between Battaglia and Bucciere, but that would make him look like a serious guy. According to Joe, he was regarded as a goof by his contemporaries. Was he made?

Brother? 

Correct

Not sure. Rudy Fratto is looked at as a goof to a certain degree and he’s made. So, you never know. I think Matassa Senior was made and that helped his son, Pudgy, to get made at a later time. Horsey, as you already know, if we dig deeper we could come up with at least 15 more made guys during this period. However,  it’s too much work and too much unnessary research. This chart is a real good and accurate portrayal of the Outfit during this time period.  Black Angelo, also mentioned Joey Lombardi. Not sure during this time period so I left him off.  However, was at the very least ” In Line ” and could be included on a future chart.  He got out of prison in 1977 after serving 7 years. The Outfit has their own rewarding system if you know what I mean.  

This chart is already way more accurate of how the power structure really works than Burnstein’s chart. During this time period, at least all the guys mentioned were alive. We’re not listing dead people like that idiot. Also, our chart is centered around the whole basis of structure in the Outfit. The Street Crew.

I hate the blow the lid off of things but you have Joe Andriacchi on the flow chart. He was a two bit burglar for most of his “young” adult life (meaning his 30s).

He did not make a real name for himself until the 1970s when he armed some construction companies and partnered up with his “cuzzin” Joey Lombardo in that racket and then he became a “somebody”.

Inasmuch Andricacchi did not get Made until he was released from prison in 1971 (after that burglary charge) he was around 40 something years old when he got Made. In all honesty I would have a Pretty Boy Lombardi on their before a Andriaccchi in that era. Lombardi was involved in the juice buisness and was already making a name for himself in some serious money making rackets. But Lombardi too was more than likely Made in the 197os. 

By the way Horsey you need to add 2 more names… directly under Mooney: (1) MUGSY TORTORELLA (2) NEEDLES GIANOLA. Both made guys and would kill for Mooney at the drop of a hat.

Bacino was not subordinate to LaPorte.

Black Angelo, I am well aware of Gianola. I’m not sure if you read some of the other posts in this thread, but there’s about 15 or so names we’re not going to be able to include without compromising the quality of the chart. So, yes, those names you mention do belong in there along with some others, but we need to keep the top tier, as it is. Dom suggested 4 or 5 interesting names that could be included under LaPorte/Ch Heights, but there isn’t room at this point for those, either. (There’s only so much you can do with Google Docs.)

I’m leaving it up to the Don (and Joe, when he’s in the threads) to moderate name suggestions submitted by other readers, including myself. 

The next chart we’re doing is entering more into your area of expertise. Cicero at the very top, with Elmwood Park under it, and the North Side /Rush St.,  Grand Ave.,  26th St., &  Chicago Heights crews at the very bottom.

Horsey,  fair enough. Let’s relax and we’ll do the next chart maybe when the next article comes out. The next one should be from say 1973 to 1986. This will be the Auippa/ Cerone Dynasty. I’d like to start around that time period because in 1972, Ricca had died and in 1973 DeStefano & Bucciere were dead. I know Auippa was the Top Boss in 1970, but the real power shift didn’t start until the men I mentioned above were finally gone. I believe Joe’s next article will be about Lee Magnaficci. We could do the chart at that point of release. Then, maybe Joe can write an article about Sam Carlisi. A lot of readers have asked about him. He was a bit of a mystery, especially compared to other Bosses. If that happens, then our next chart could be from 1986 to 1993. Know what I mean? Let’s see what Joe thinks about it.

Yes, the mechanics of the Outfit are much more clear to me now that I think of it in terms of the crews. The Street Crews are the building blocks. Without the crews, there’s no Outfit.

Sounds good Horse, Good Chart so far (but I wouldnt say just any name unless I thought they definatly belonged on their) and Dom seems to be an expertise on the Heights (during any era). When did Jimmy Emery die ? He was the baddest mutha fucker ever out that way.

Sounds like a plan.

Black Angelo,  I added Americo DePietto. I actually did think about him. I’m still thinking about Ferriola. Give me another made man in the Cicero Group during that time period. Then, maybe we can shift Ferriola into the Upper Box. Bucky Ortenzi I do not believe was made at this early of a time period. Give me someone else. The ‘ Modern Grand Ave. Crew ‘ did not start until after this time period was over. During this time it was Elmwood Park only. Later on Melrose Park beame more of a place where different Crews were involved depending upon the activity. in the later years, Grand Ave. had a lot of influence in Melrose Park , but then again so did Cicero. Also, there has been some direct influence from the Dominent Crew Elmwood Park, especially with Pete DiFronzo. There was a beef i talked about concerning Pete DiFronzo and someone else very influential in Melrose Park back around 2002. Guess which crew got involved to settle the arguement and make things better? Not Cicero. It was Grand Ave. under orders from Lombardo. The man speaking on behalf of the Outfit was a made man from Grand Ave.

I am totally T d off at your ignorant comment you made in your chart about me HF.  Don’t you have anything better to do? Infact, I aways wanted to tell you this, but, I think you are jealous of Harlem Playboy because he is a good looking guy! This is the only opportunity you have, to ever get back at the guys that screwed you around because of your features. You are truly ungly inside. Harlem Play Boy only asked one thing of Joe Fosco. Just one! Nothing else! He did nothing wrong!

All he wanted was an article, That’s all! Nothing else! You are the one that got off on making a joke out it. This does not make you a man! You are still the guy they made fun out of, when you were young. You have no sincerity, You need to gain attention by making offensive comments about others!

I will like an apology prompty MR!

I purposely stay out of here because, I can not make comments on The Chicago Outfit! Does this distraction make you indentify with being a man? Your not a man! The sad truth is Harlem Play Boy is a man! He is the man you always wanted to be!

What happened in your life that you need me? This is the way that Tosto needs Joe! Now you need me! Why? SQE

There’s no question that they were important, but they’re beyond the scope of this chart because they weren’t made. 

To HF, is your diagram excercise going to make to enrgized, is it an indication of a greater feeling? If your going to find fault in me then I boo your Humaniterism in broad strokes. I have some startling information for your current wife. Can you posiibly ever say something honorble indecint? Does she wash your feet? Who could stand someone that looks like you? So you want the death penalty for Harlem Play Boy! As if this were to make you a man? I think I deserve an apology! I think you are an oportunist! So you da man! Hna! No your the opposite! And you know what the opposite of a man is?

Again, why do you need me? Why do you need Harlem Play Boys energy? SQE

Sorry to test your holy patience, SQE. It was a joke. Obviously. There’s not a sane person in the world who would look at this chart (https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1dTkj3d0WWHYwEZSlZYsYqvYuUjpl1teukPSSdAdEjNA/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1) and take it seriously.

Besides, I’m not the only one that used to tease Harlem Playboy. In fact, I believe there used to be another person who used to post comments under the name Horsey F*rt  or one of its variations. I have no idea whether Harlem Playboy is a good looking guy (a “Handsome Fella”) or not, and I can’t imagine what you would know about my features. If you’re curious, I can assure you that they’re very much in the realm of normal, unlike your stream-of-consciousness detective work in the threads. For the record, Harlem Playboy dished it out just as much as he took it, and it was fun while it lasted. I guess the Nick Gio prankster schtick got old for him or something, and he moved on.
Try to take it easy and enjoy the nice fall weather we’ve been having.lol

PS: Why are rushing to defend the honor of a reader who hasn’t commented in over a year? In fact, I don’t recall a “Special Quest Explorer” participating in the in any of  the threads back in the Harlem Playboy days. How do you know that Harlem Playboy wanted a particular article written? Interesting… Anyway, what do you think of the chart? If it isn’t the best Outfit chart ever compiled, it’s “ It’s pretty damn near close! Near close!!!! ” lol

Sorry. THIS chart: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1dTkj3d0WWHYwEZSlZYsYqvYuUjpl1teukPSSdAdEjNA/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

Don, Got your question from way below. I’ll respond to you up here about Cicero and moving Joe Nick (Ferriola). Move Joe Nick to Taylor Street (where he rightfully belongs in this era) and then put Ralph Capone in Cicero. Ralph and Bobby Taylor where like advisors for Obrien. Kind of like Joe B was with Don Rickles (oh I meant Cerone) in Elmwood Prk. Your thoughts ?

LOL

Joe, The Don Rickles comparison is classic right ? Those mother fuckers could be brothers ! And Don if your not comfortable with Ralph Capone as an advisor to Obrien. You can put in Cicero. Either one of 2 people: 1. JAMES LAPIETRA or 2. Apes Monteleone

Spot on. Don Rickles.

LaPorte was the Capo from 1957 to 1966. Bacino might have been like an advisor to LaPorte. I agree he was high ranking and a Sicilian old timer. So, as a sign of respect to his status, I mentioned him. We could take him out since he was semi retired and put somone else who was more active under LaPorte. 

Amen, Brother.

Joe Fosco, now did you get my forwarded email from the family member of the Catatalano family? What is your opinion of it? Can you share it in here? Why are you letting HF being rude to me and using profamity about me in his flow chart? SQE

Tony,  Horsey is correct. We’re only concentrating on made guys, not High Level Associates. It’s a technicality we’re observing. Now, if  we made a Non Italian Box that was part of the Oufit, you’re damn right: Murray Humphreys would be like a Capo and under him would be Gus Alex, Ralph Pierce, Les Kruse Lenny Patrick, Davey Yarras & Eddie Vogel.

Dear SQE,

There is a satire to all of it. Simply ignore it if satire is not your gig. I would ignore it.

I did not get the Catalano email.

Best wishes, jf

HF, the whole problem is Joe Fosco is not sharing with you the full information! Such as the actual pictures that would lead  one with a reasonable mind to see a match.

As far as my objection with the chart. It would seem that me being referred to batshit as ofensive.

All I ever saw Harlem Play ever do is ask about a Nick Gio. Your not sexy or attractive to me in the moment, and he is!

Your disposition makes you appear only jealous of Harlem Play Boy. I thought maybe you picked on him because what you had against him is his looks. It’s been my experience that what people see, in someone is what they can not have. So, hence, you must not look as good, is what I surmised!

The problem with my detective thoeries is there are too many people that died already me! The even worse thing about it, is yes, it has made me batty. I think I am going to die, there are some dangerous people in me area. I am batty over it because there are poeple I could possibly know that did have did these killings>

One more thing that I have nevr mentioned yet in here that makes me batty, is that there is another person missing. This one is a girl! So am I scared yes, I am! SQE

 Black Angelo,  Was Ralph Capone active in 1964 or so? If he was, he would be a good choice for Cicero. I wasn’t sure how seriosly he was still involved at that point in time. Let me know about Ralph Capone.

Horsey,  Go ahead and insert Ralph Capone. This is what I think will be the next tweek. Remove Americo DePietto and replace him with Joe Ferriola. Replace Joe Ferriola with Ralph Capone. DePietto was too close to narcotics trafficking. He might have been made but why take a chance. It’s also good to get a Capone in there. Also, remove Joe Andriacchi and replace him with Sam Mesi. 

Right on with Sam Mesi. Good Call !

SQE,  I may be wrong but I believe you are a female. Am I correct? You have referred to Joe Fosco in the past as  ‘ Sweetie.’  Your posts are generally irrational &  incoherent but one thing comes across loud and clear and that is that you are very scared of being killed by some people. I don’t know your situation, but if anybody should be on guard about being killed it would be Joe Fosco. However, Joe still has a sense of humor and laughs along with the boys.  All of the other readers are Chicago Italian guys that like to laugh and be sarcastic and ball busting sometimes.  That’s just the way it is. It’s almost like being in an Italian American fraternity. Please try and relax. If somebody was going to harm you, it would have been done already.  Why don’t you try and join in on the discussions and forget about trying to be a detective.  Happiness and tranquility comes from within.  Try this and maybe you’ll start to feel a little better about things.  I know Horsey meant no harm. He and I have called each other names worse than batshit and it meant nothing.  Sincerely, Your Friend, The Don 

Black Angelo,  In comparing Chicago to New York,  Would you agree that the 5 Street crews in Chicago were equal to the 5 families in New York.  I Do.  Would you agree that the MADE guys in Chicago are equal to the 75  ‘ Captains ‘ in New York?  ( Each New York Family had an average of 15 captains per Family).  I Do.  Would you agree that the soldiers & associates in Chicago are equal to the soldiers in New York?  I Do.  Would you agree that Chicago has MORE  influence over their City than New York? ( Making sure Kennedy won the election)  I Do. Would you agree that Chicago has MORE  influence outside their city than New York? ( Las Vegas )   I Do.  So, in conclusion it can be argued very factually and logically that the Chicago Outfit under Ricca & Mooney was the most powerful Mafia Group ever in the United States.  You or anyone elses’s thoughts? 

Don, Taylor Street by themselves was equal to a crime family in New York (at its height). Da Chicago Heights Crew was equal to a New York Crime Family unto themselves (at its height from 1920-80s). You consolidate those 2 street crews along with Elmwood Park Crew, Grand Ave, Melrose Park, Rush Street, 26th st Chinatown and almighty Cicero and you have a fuckin Army ! By the way we have Off Shore Gambling and made Vegas what it is today. 

That was the difference between Chicago and New York we consolidated as one. And they divided and fought each other. They have the commission… we have are own fucking commission (as Obrien use to say lol). They let people slip through the cracks and have MadeGuys running amuck and becoming Stoole Pigeons on a daily basis.

Are MadeGuys are a dime a dozen and when Made in Chicago the average age is 40 to 50 years old. The MadeGuy in Chicago is seasoned. The MadeGuy in New York is on par with Esquire Cerone. Its rare a MadeGuy in Chicago flips. In New York a Boss flips on his own crew. ahh Marone !

The Outfit whacked a Chicago Mayor, got a couple elected, got a President or 2 elected, controled Hollywood Unions and the movie industry, selected a Supreme Court Justice, Frank Sinatra wrote 2 songs on behalf of are boss (Mooney), The Outfit got Kennedy elected and then whacked him and then 3 days after that whacked Oswold. The Outfit as they say is monalithic. Sure New York Mobsters may look the part.

They may have alot of rackets but man for man the Outfit is a well oiled corporation where every guy wets his beak (especially during Capone,Nitti,Ricca,Mooney,and Obriens regimes). In New York only the rich get richer. They got MadeGuys that are friggin bums, because their bosses are greedy. In Chicago MadeGuys live in 3 bedroom apartments or Oak Brook 16 room mansions while both the 3 bedroom fella and the Oak Brook Fella are both worth 25 million a piece.

And last but not least we used are Juice Loans to gain a foothold in legitimate businesses and corrupt politicians.. They the New Yorkers used Juice Loans to cover their gambling debts and spend on goomahs. 

Right on Brother, Actually the Taylor St. Crew all by itself was stronger than the Gambino Family in New York. Man per man, the Outfit was untouchable. Your best and most accurate statement was that the made guy in Chicago is seasoned. The Made guys in Chicago are equal to the Captains in New York. Being a made guy in Chicago is a big fucking deal. Not so in New York. Dime A Dozen. By the way speaking of the Mooney Regime, it was told to me that Joe Gags always got nervous getting a phone call from Mooney. Do you want to know why?  Joe Gags actually liked Jack and was treated reasonably well because Cerone needed him in a big way. Had Accardo died in 1965, Mooney would have called in Joe Gags to set up Cerone. Joe Gags would have been approved as Capo. Joe Gags would have had to make a choice: Either tell Cerone or follow the order. I believe Joe Gags would have followed the order. The 4 Made men on stand by were Alderisio, Nicoletti, Daddano & DeStefano. Heard it from the horse’s mouth. Your thoughts?

What about Frankie “Cease” Zizzo?  Little Tony’s father was a power house in the 1960s in Cicero and oversaw NW Indiana.  Also Anthony “Tony Head” Granito. 

What about Frankie “Cease” Zizzo?  Little Tony’s father was a power house in the 1960s in Cicero and oversaw NW Indiana.  Also Anthony “Tony Head” Granito. 

I agree with that. Granted he was in the Bonanno family, but I think Lefty Ruggerio’s fear of the Chicago Outfit in Donnie Brasco (the book) speaks volumes about the Outfit’s national standing, reputation, and perceived power. New York gangsters are often considered more Old World because they had a greater influx of Sicilian immigrants. The Outfit had off-the-boat guys in the very beginning, but since has mainly consisted of local talent. So what?

The Commission in NYC is, in large part, mythology. It served a purpose when Mooney and Angelo Bruno had seats and something like a National Syndicate still existed, but, after that, the Commission was just a highfalutin way to refer to a sit-down between local guys. Joe Massino (the snitch boss of the Bonanno family) admitted recently that the Commission hasn’t met in since 1985, and even then, the guys who showed up to that meeting were zeroes. 

New York groups induct new guys every week, and many of them are drug pushers in their late-twenties who are fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to have Italian surnames. 

I have no first hand knowledge of this, of course, but I’ve heard a handful of stories about New York guys being very deferential to Outfit guys in prison. Remember that situation involving Frank Calabrese getting mad at Shorty LaMantia (who wasn’t made) for introducing him to some New York guys in prison? That whole situation stemmed from the New York guys WANTING to be introduced to Frank C., as if he was some kind of celebrity, or exotic endangered animal, or something. True, he was pissed at Shorty for formally introducing them when he didn’t have the standing to do so. But the thing Frank C. was more pissed about was the FACT that he didn’t want to or need to talk to those guys and had NO INTEREST in making their acquaintance, but Shorty introduced him, putting him in an awkward situation. 

Zizzo is a good one, and Granito, that swarthy bastard. We’ll have to bounce these two off the Don.

The Don, what do you think?

The Genovese Family and more so the Bruno Family worked well with the Outfit, Bonnano, Profaci, Cleveland Family were much more of old school sicilian. The Lucchese family and the early outfit had ties because of Torrio, Capone and Campangna’s Brooklyn roots.  Detriot and Chicago very close.  Buffalo and Chicago shared a dislike of Bonnano.   The Outfit operated strongly in Florida and by default Cuba in partnership with Lansky and Trafficante.  New York had very little choice but to be afraid of Chicago. 

Joe, KICK ASS article even though I was disappointed to see that it came before the Lee Mags (Magnafichi) article.

Horsey, I know you are probably kidding with calling me crazy on your chart, since YOU are the crazy one, calling yourself “Horseyfart” (LMFAO). I can take it, fortunately. I can take it because I am tough full-Italian, luckily. Unfortunately, Taylor Street looks like a bulldozer of a crew. Put a special box around Lee’s name in the thread for the Lee Magnafichi article. 

Logic & Horsey,  I wanted to put Zizzo in there. Let’s do this: remove Bacino since he was basically retired, and put Frank Zizzo in his place. You know what’s interesting gentlemen, Look how powerful the Chicago Heights Crew was back then. Powerhouse. 

Yes Joe Gags would of been put in a postion that Butch Blasi was in when he had to knock down Mooney. And Alderisio, Nicoletti, Daddano, Dyno and even Chuck Englisi where all on stand by for Mooney. Hey did you ever find out if James “Jimmy” Emery was still alive during that era ? Not only was he in charge of the Heights but he was right up their with Ricca.

willie messino was one of the main men who would have killed cerone for aiuppa. aiuppa had willie keeping tabs on jack for many years. and willie did the job well, behind jacks back.

Horse, Yes that is a true story. Frank Sr. did not like how Shorty Lamantia introduced himself to the New York guys. One he did not want it known he was Made and 2nd Shorty should not of presented himself as Made. The Outfit MadeGuys “usually” go through great lengths to hide their real “status” in the Outfit and especially to “outsiders”.

And the Bonnano’s Lefty Ruggerio was scared shitless of Milwaukee Boss Frank Balistreri. It;s funny because Lefty brought Donnie Brasco to a meeting in Milwaukee and they met at one of Balistreri’s many restaurants and Frank immediatelly sensed something was not right and canceled the meeting right in front of their faces (the meeting was about vending machines i believe).

And all of the New York Families knew not to fuck with Obrien. He told them flat out in 1977. He basically manipulated them at a commission meeting and told them they could make more money in Atlantic City (the New York bosses bought the bullshit) and then he told them to stay out of Vegas. They all agreed. And then Obrien created his own Commission lol.

Don–You are right…but just as the Taylor St. crew diminished when the neighborhood became less concentrated with Italians, so did Chicago Heights.  The Heights had a large concentration of Sicilians specifically…Ceasar Tocco, Pappa Joe Tocco, Chinky Guzzino, Palermo, Snooky Morgano, etc…all Sicilians…they called their ghetto “Hungry Hill.” 

Louis Rasanova is another one to have on there.  Also during Mooney’s rein, Pappa Joe Tocco controlled AZ for the Outfit. 

Cerone’s Crew divided in their loyalty. Joe Gags actually worked well with Cerone and like him reasonably well. Willie deep down inside knew what Cerone was doing to him. Joey A. didn’t like Cerone. DiFronzo wasn’t real fond of Cerone. Lombardi didn’t like Cerone and thought he was a bullshit politician. Lee Magnaficci liked Cerone. It was definitely divided. From what  use to hear and see, He was the most unpopular Boss the Outfit ever had. Ross Prio, Sam Battagia, Fiore Bucciere, Joey Auippa, Frank LaPorte and in later years, Vince Solano, Joey Lombardo, Angelo LaPietra, Joe Ferriola etc. all seemed to have more loyalty and general content with their made men. Sure, they had some problems and occasional disgruntling but not like Cerone. He was the most disliked.

And,  The Boss of the Buffalo Group, Stefano Magadino, was a First cousin to Bonnano.

Horsey,  Okay, minor tweek. Jimmy the Bomber’s last name is mispelled. Should read Catuara.  Also, remove Bacino because he was basically retired and insert Frank Zizzo. Thank You. I was mentioning this to Logic, Do you see how strong the Chicago Heights crew was at this time? They were a POWERHOUSE.  I know this will start a friendly debate, but in my opinion, among the 4 Crews who were partnered with Taylor St., I would say during THIS time period,  the Chicago Heights Crew led by Frank LaPorte was the most powerful in their individual territory.  Also, LaPorte was close with Ricca & so was Ross Prio.  To be honest, in order to keep the number of made  men down to 60, we’re not even showing the complete true power of the Outfit at this time. We’re also not including the Non Italian Oufit members either.    

Was Steve Annerino made? He was around during the era of the chart your doing.

Jimmy Emery died in 1957

OK, the Done, I made those changes. Check it out, and let me know when to start designing chart #2.

Chitowndago,  There was a Sam Annerino who was a soldier in the Chicago Heights Crew that was murdered arould 1977. Is that who you mean? He was a collector/ enforcer. Remember, most of the men who belonged to the Oufit full time were not made. Most of them were soldiers who worked for the made men. During this time period there were at least 300 men who ‘belonged’ to the Outfit but maybe 25% or say about 75 were made. Being made in Chicago was a real honor to these guys and didn’t come easily. Chicago was much more select than New York where everybody who belonged to a Crew got made and then went out and did whatever they wanted. Chicago was much better organized. Also, being made gave you the right to run your own sub crew or be a supervisor with other made men over soldiers & associates who did business with the Capo.

No Steve was with the “Cicero” crew back then. I just wasn’t sure if he was made or not. I guess not or you would have known right from go. I don’t know if he was related to Sam or not. I know he was also affiliated with La Pietra at one time, who was Chinatown (Angelo). It’s possible.

P.S. I have to commend you guys on the chart. Damn good work!!!!

Horsey,  The Chart is really damn good. Can you do one small thing? Can you make the little box for the underbosses of each of the 4 auxillary crews just a little bigger so the box is a least as big as the made men’s boxes below them? Are you ready to start Chart #2 or do you want to wait for the Lee Magnaficci article? It doen’t matter to me. Also, can you post the location of the chart at the top of this thread so it’s easier to find and then click it on.? Thank you, you’ve done great!

Thank You.  Are you from the Chicago Heights area? I got the impression that you and Dom are from the Heights area. Am I correct?

Joe, How unerving is it to sit across from Peter “Greedy P” DiFronzo ? I heard he talks with his hands alot as if he is about to hit you. Is it hard to look into his “unusual” eyes when he is talking ? Was you scared ?

Black Angelo,  How recently did Joe talk to Pete DFronzo?

Joe,  Why are you not responding hardly at all to a few questions asked? Are you okay? What is the meaning of Black Angelo’s question about Pete DiFronzo? Black used the present tense in his question, not the past tense. What’s going on if you don’t mind me asking?

I spent a lot of time there growing up. I still have a lot of  friends & family there. Since the town has changed a lot of them relocated to the burbs.

I remember reading somewhere that some New York guys were talking. I don’t remember if it was caught on a wire tap or what. It was somewhere along the lines of “Don’t F@ck around with Chicago guys, they don’t f@ck around they are crazy they use bombs and will blow you up!” It was years ago when I read it so I can’t recall where it came from.

sam annerino was from down by the heights, he may have been from blue island, Jimmy catuara was from there i think too, his son  owns an alarm security company.  Annerino and an old friend of mine had a card room and a floating crap game in Dixmoor around the time he got killed.  He got shot in broad daylight by a jewelery store in oak lawn.  The next day the FBI showed up at this old timers house wanting all of his whereabouts and an alibis.  Chitown your from the heights im younger than you im sure but we were all from the heights my dad and all my uncles worked for Chicago Heights distributing and Joe Costello worked with Pilloto and Tocco.

My father worked as a young kid at grocery store in crete before working in the heights, he would talk about Frank La Porte coming in with his driver (this is in the 60′s) he wouldn’t grab stuff off the shelves he would point to items and the guy would grab him for him, my dad said as a kid he was terrified of him.  Not for anything in particular he just had this battled hardened air about him.  Supposedly his driver was making a pick up for him for debt owed by the owners brother. 

Hi Black Angelo, I grew up on Taylor St, I lived across the street from the Survivor’s Club in the 60′s, you mentioned Needles Gianola, everyone on Taylor St respected him but really feared him. Do you know more about Needles?

Its like talking to any other person, except that he has a brother that could order murders.

I am fine, thank you for asking. Do not mind me. I am simply refraining from disturbing you fellows while you hash out the details of the chart.

Joe,  Did you talk to Pete DiFronzo recently and under what conditions? You don’t have to go into great detail. If you’ve noticed, the silence on this thread has been almost deafening after Black Angelo asked you that question. Did you tell Black Angelo not to answer my question? I’ll bet  you 1 million dolars if I had asked him a question about Marco, he would have responded. I think you owe your readers some kind of honest explanation. 

I did not talk to Pete recently. I am not Black Angelo’s boss, i suppose he answers when he wants to. I do not see his question as a big deal. I do not have 1-million dollars to cover the bet, plus such gambling is against the law in Illinois.

You had mentioned before that you were going to be involved in a new civil suit with Pete DiFronzo. Is that what is happening? If True, all you have to say is yes. There would no reason for Black Angelo to make the statement he did and ask such a question. Then, it seemed like he was afraid to answer my question. I think some of the readers became apprehesive. 

Nope.

Okay Joe, what ever you say.

Joe, Horsey, Black Angelo, The Don I really enjoy reading your posts (except the arguing) Please keep it coming, all you guys have helped this “outfit novice” When does the current chart come out? And do you guys think Jimmy Marcello might win his appeal?

I doubt Jimmy will win.

Hmmmmmmmmmm….I smell something and it’s not cranberry sauce.
What gives?

Black,
Just curious where this is coming from? If you don’ want to post it I understand.

B.S. Joseph…..I think your sweetheart came back for a visit. LOL!!!!

LOL

And, I insist that my sweetheart is not Greg Tosto!

He used to spend time in Manhatten & Braidwood IL( WHERE THE HELL ARE THOSE TOWNS?!) lol.
My Grandfather drove me nuts with this site. He’s very old so I had to read him a ton of posts. I even went back to the start of this site. He had a field day listening as I read them. Now, even though he has no clue how the internet works, I’m going to have to be his mouthpiece at some point.
THANKS JOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     lol!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You better come clean or the regulars on here are going to have to make a “Twit of the week!”

Letemrde,
I don’t think I’m as old as you think. But I’ve heard that story. I’ve heard several different versions of it soooo, I won’t comment on it.

Don Rickles should not be disrespected like that.
We should change it to “Ron Dickles.”
Better yet “Jack-Cole-De Sack” due to the shape of his hairline.

LOL

Her name was Judith Exner.

Carmen1492,  We have 60 made guys on the chart. We do not have the full number of made men listed.  All made men are Italian. Yes, Gianola was a made guy. Sam Calfa was a soldier who belonged to the Outfit but was not a made guy. Gus Alex was Greek. Think of the Chart like you were going to see the Rolling Stones in Concert. The Stones would play MOST of their hits but NOT ALL of them in one night. The Chart has MOST of the made guys BUT NOT all of them.  It would be too time consuming.  

Yes, Joe I recieved a mail demon on the Catalano ting I was trying forward you. Sorry! I will now facebook them an update on Nick Rada. For Pete’s sake Joe Fosco, we been trying to find the identity of the Italian flag jacket for 2 years. The police has this description on their reports for 2 years. Note. I saw this guy after I sent Andrea Russo Tony Catalano’s missing person’s flye by mail to tell the guys at Piaza cafe. SQE
PS I stay say that Rada probably didn’t hang at Piaza cafe. unlees he over heard Andrea’s himmmmig and hawing and is watching him!!!!!!! It was Andrea’s Russo’s reaction to me sending him a missing person flyer that I ranted and raved about to detective Gonzelez! SQE

The Don, I made that last change you suggested. Check it out, and, if it’s OK, we’ll move onto the next one.

The Don, Thank you for the info, I was just wondering how big Gianola was, because he was a well respected and a feared man to us young guys from Taylor St. Just his voice alone scared the hell out of us!

Joe, I can’t find that article you wrote about the time you joined Jack Cerone, Wee Willie, Lee’s son (Michael), and Rudy Fratto for a few cheap laughs with some chuckleheads from Cleveland. You guys were yukkin’ it up with a couple of Cleveland screwballs when suddenly Jack declared that he was his dad’s real underboss (LMFAO). Maybe the article got lost during the change from K.T.F. Media Group to American News Post. Please republish it. As it turns out, I am in desperate need of some easy laughs this morning, unfortunately.

I can’t believe what passes for a made guy on the streets of Cleveland these days. I heard when one of these Cleveland nitwits reported back to Joe Loose, he allegedly called Jack “that bald bullshitter.” (LOL) Cleveland is most definitely the B-team, unfortunately. Anyone who would believe that Cerone is mobster is no-brain nitwit from the Buckeye State, most likely.

Horsey,  The chart looks great!  We will have to wait until Sunday and then the second chart will begin. I’m taking a couple of days to investigate some things. Thank you and once again your design is excellent. 

Nothing has been lost. It was probably in the message threads. Do a google search on it.

Attention everyone.  Red alert! OMG!! I found Nick Rada in facebook! OMG I got my side profile I have been looking for. OMG!!! One more thing for those who have followed me all along. Doyou remember that a Michelle Farrar was in charge of Tony Catalano’s wood search mission, that was on the news and everything? Well, Michelle’s cousin is listed among his friend’s!

OMG!! And my wish is for a world of less Elmwood Park! The insanity of it! OMG!!!

Most of all what would he want with me? What is his relation to the Catalano case and the Defillipis. Now I saw Nick just 2 blocks away from the Defillipis condo? OMG!!!!

Don’t you think I should tell the Catalano members I know about Rada, especially, if he is that close to Michelle’s family? This gets more insane and more insane??? Michelle told me once that she recieved a threat in facebook, saying that, “If he owes money to someone, why are you helping him?” OMG!! Where do I go with this???? SQE

I think you should drop it SQE, Rada has nothing to do with the Catalano case. Please move on to something else.

ur rite don,but her name was really judy campbell. mooney checked in many places with her has bonnie,his oldest daughters name,but address the point i made if you can, also fosco is very hesitant to put up my comments because he knows i have more first hand experiance than anyone on this or any site….

Sorry, I just published your other comment. I thought you wanted it quiet.

and to special quest,i know you mean well but i suggest you see someone quickly,and i dont mean a detective….

Kkanz,  Do you WANT  Joe to post your comments or do you NOT WANT  your comments posted. I read on the other thread that you wanted confidentiality. However, now you’re saying  Joe is hesitant to post your comments because you have tremendous first hand experience. So which is it, do you want your comments posted or not?  Be clear about it.  I  believe I know who you are and based upon that belief, I think you do have some very good information. Let’s just say that your father knew Mooney very well.  However, instead of tying to make it into a competion about who is more well informed, why not give your input and be done with it.  Joe and I have relatives who are/were made guys also. In Fact mine has been around a hell of a long time. Now, what would you like me to address?  Do you think the Oufit was involved in the Kennedy assasination or do you  think it was the C.i.A. and they were simply tring to make the Chicago people the fall guys? I don’t know your position so I can’t comment on  it. Once I know your position clearly, then I can comment on it intelligently. 

Thnaks, for alowing me to respond Tony. Tony how did this guy know where to find me? There are only 2 ways. Either. he knows someone in direct contact of knowing where I were to be found from the guys at 3 Olives (Cafe Piaza group) or Michael Defillipis Jr. I had just seen Michael Defillipis Jr prior to seeing him.

I was measuring the neighborhood by the”Inside” and the”outside.”  The age perimeters is age at that time 20′s. The “Inside” would be that he hung with the same people I knew age 40′s to 60′s. A few scattered in thier 30′s.  The other, the fact that they are American Italian or Sicilian grease ball type. At that time I knew more the grease ball type. When I told Mario Gonzelez that I thought Tony Catalano was Sicilian non American. That was an issue he brought to my attention; it was that he was American Italian.

I have no clue who Lonstar as a commentator is but, he really blue my mind by saying that Joe Messino hung with the guys I hung with from 3 Olives. Perhaps, they are victims?

There are a few people in Rada’s face book friend list that I know that went to high school at Elmwood Park high.

One of them is Braglia the daughter of a Elmwood Park cop. The problem that I have is that my daughter would tell me to not embarrass her. My daugher did not hang around with Braglia. Ok, why he?, Because she may be able to tell me or her father where Michael Defillipis and Rada hung at. Such as bars.

I know that the Tribune stated once that Defillipis hung on Rush st. I would rather hear that confirmed from a policeman’s duaghter. Great, now I got worry about the prom queen and that type of crowd from my daughter’s high school!SQE

To Tony, thnaks again for allowing me to rspond. The thing you had said about Rada had nothing to do with it. Well he put himself ou there to be out in the open. He nade himseld conpicuous by worrying about me. His oufit and large body stood out like a sore thumb. He should not have been curious.

I think he should be questioned. It was the conspicuioys way he had sought me out. Tony what had happened prior is, and I have to be honest, you had confused me. When I saw Rada , in a picture, it had brought me back to the memory of the original person. That is to saying the original person was not a playboy good looking guy. Rada is not that handsome. The original person had a small hook nose. I finally found a side profile of Nick Rada in facebook.

Tony, now lets recap; what was Nick Rada doing circling around me and seeking me out in the first place. His face was 2 feet from the ground kneling down to sneak a peak at me?

From beyound, Rada, is from the Elmwood Park crowd. You know I saw Defillipis right before that. The point is he put himself out there for questioning. You know by his actions! Oh’ll the place where I was at, is located 2 blocks away from the Defillipis condo. SQE

To Tony, in further, to be the devils advocate on your side, that Rada didn’t have anything to do with it. Then answer me this? What did he want with me? I mean, why bother? He caaame to me for Petes sake.

Also, I happen to know that alot of the Elmwood Park crowd 2 years ago hung at a disco named Baci’s by the circle.  The reason I know this is because,it is because I saw many pictures in facebook of people in there. This was in the Braglia daughter’s pic’s The in crowd was a cool place 2 years ago. I wonder were that incrowd hangs now? HUH? Of Elmwood Park that is? SQE

PS Tony, Do think that this In crowd can finger that signature jacket. You know the Italian flag leather jacket and cool brim? Just wondering? What is on police data bases besides signature tatoos anyway? Huh?

the Don,

Two things. First, I think we can moved onto the next chart. If you want to describe the layout to me, I can work on it this afternoon or this evening, and post it some time tonight. Second, I am going to import these charts into another publishing app., which will allow me to add 20 to 30 more names (if you want) without ruining the chart, as well as make some aesthetic changes. So keep a running list of names that you’d like to add, and I can insert them when the time comes. Using this other app., I can create a box for non-Italians like Hump, Gus Alex, Hy Larner, et al. 

Horsey,  Okay. I’ll try tonight for someting preliminary. I’ve already mapped it out in my mind. This chart will be similar but different because Cicero & Elmwood Park will be above the other 4 Crews sharing the power with Cicero being the Dominent Crew and Elmwood Park being the Sub Dominent Crew. The Bosses of each crew will be as follows; Joey Auippa, Top Boss Cicero, Jack Cerone Underboss Elmwood Park,  Turk Torello,  Capo 26 St,  Joey Lombardo, Capo Grand Ave.,  Dominic DiBella, Capo North Side /Rush St,, &  Al Pillotto, Capo Chicago Heights. 

Once Joe made a comment about Joe B wishing he would’ve had another Sam Alex.  Heard his name but kind of like Hy Larner there doesn’t seem to be much known about him.  Im assuming hes related to Gus Alex, is he still alive, dead, what was his main function or racket.  This was something ive been thinking about for some time.

Kkanz, did Sam know they were going to murder Cain?  Who where the shooters?  Maybe Joe can do a story on the Cain hit.  Also Horsey, did Nick clear that murder in family secrets?  They want to put it on Aleman, but I always heard it was the German and maybe Alby.

No, it wasn’t cleared. Everyone under the sun has been suspected of shooting Cain, but, you’re right that Harry is the prime suspect–mainly because it was done in his “style” and was during his more prolific years as a killer.

Joe and others, this is going to sound crazy, but is there any chance Aleman was made? His mother was Joe Nick’s sister, and there are different theories as to who his biological father was. He had an Italian-American upbringing and didn’t consider himself anything other than Italian.

Horse, Joe Nick married a sister of Harry’s mother. I think that was his first marriage. (Joe Nick was married twice). He has kids in their 50s and in their 30s (i believe from two different women).

Father Guido,  To be honest, I always heard it was Joey Lombardo. I do not believe Nick Calabrese talked about the Cain Hit, but I could be wrong.

Black Angelo,  Where have you been?   As punishment for never answering Chitowndago’s question or my question which you are ignoring on purpose,  Marco will not be on any of the Charts. LOL

Horsey,  It is possible Aleman was made. Marcello got made and actually became a Boss being  half Italian. Maecello  slid by because of his father and he did have the Italian last name.  I do know that the Outfit wants the Made guys to be full Italian, which 99% are. Aleman could be full Italian but simply doesn’t have the Italian last name. Yes, Horsey,  it is possible. I personally don’t know,   His name came up a few times and all I know was that he was related to Ferriola and was a very prolific Outfit killer. The Outfit did go to extreme measures to get him out of jail. Also, when he got out he was given a lot of money.

Well stated Don I agree 1,000 % with the aformentioned you have stated. And Joe Fosco, What did Greedy P tell you ? Was his eyes shifty ? Did he say he would sabotage any of your financial dealings behind the scenes (he’s known for that) … just concerned and hope your okay. And Joe do you know what Michael Magnafichi did with all the money Marco gave to him. Did he jerk it off by gambling with it. And NO (your right) Marco didnt give him any money with pts involved. He did something with that money or he would of not been out in Oak Brook doing what he has been doing for sometime now. Thanks Joe.

Horsey,  Okay, if you want to start the basic layout for the second chart we can begin.  At the Top of the Chart make a Gigantic Box that will contain Cicero & Elmwood Park.  Within the Box, put Cicero on the left and Elmwood Park on the right and made Elmwood Park a little lower than Cicero but basically have them side by side.  Do not put Cicero right on top of Elmwwod Park because it suggests that Cicero is alienated somewhat from the Other 4 Auxilary Crews.  On the Cicero side, put Joey Auippa, Top Boss.  Under Auippa and spread out put Joe Ferriola, Capo, and Sam Carlisi, Personal Underboss.  Over to the Right put Elmwood Park.  The Top Line should say Jack Cerone, UnderBoss. Under Cerone and spread out put on the left John DiFronzo, Capo, and to the right Willie Messino, Personal Underboss.  Under this gigantic box make 4 smaller or regular size Boxes.  The First Box should read 26th St. and have Turk Torello, Capo & Angelo LaPietra Underboss.  The Second Box should read Grand Ave. and have Joe Lombardo, Capo & Mooch Eboli Underboss.  The Third Box should read North Side/ Rush St. and have Dominc DiBella, Capo & Vince Solano, Underboss.  The Fourth Box should read Chicago Heights and have Al Pillotto, Capo &  Dominic Palermo, Underboss.  To the left of the Gigantic Box should be a smaller Box attached that reads Tony Accardo, Senior Advisor  &  under Accardo,  Al Tournabe,  Daily Advisor.  Over to the right of the Gigantic Box put the same smaller box from before that has Romie Nappi & Pat Marcy. Now, we have to make some kind of noted commentary that during this time period  Dominic DiBella died and was succeeded by Vince Solano.   Also, during this same time period, Turk Torello died and was succeeded by Angelo LaPietra.  We can make these two comments footnotes.  This will get us started.  This also explains the Chicago Commission expanded by Top Boss Joey Auippa.  This accurately reprents the 1976  Last Supper picture.  I will explain the famous photo as it was explained to me.  The Chicago Commission was expanded to include 7 men.  These seven men were in the picture with 3 others. The 7 Commision members were Joey Auippa, Jack Cerone, Tony Accardo, Turk Torello, Joey Lombardo, Dominic DiBella & Al Pillotto.  Vince Solano was there because he was replacing Dominic DiBella who was dying of cancer.  Joey DiVarco was there because he was being recognized as the new Underboss to Solano.  Joe Amato was there because he was going to be retitiring from being the street boss of his Franchise. He died soonafter.  Capos Ferriola & DiFronzo were not there because their Crews were represented by Auippa & Cerone.   The picture was taken by Dominic Blasi.      

Don, Good Job on the skelton aspect of the new chart (the hierarchy you have). However the Heights can make an arguement it was just as powerful as Elmwood Park in the 70s (as was Chinatown/26th street).

Anyhow… it looks like you stripped that last part of your paragraph right out of one of Roemer’s bullshit books (LOL). But your both accurate and you even go futher by recognizing that their was a Chicago “Commission” (I did not over look that my friend, Roemer did not realize this).

One thing that was wrong you stated (not to split hairs) but N*gger Joe Amato did not retire in 1976 and he did NOT die soonafter. Black N*gger Joe died in 1994 or 95 I believe and was like 86 years old. He was from Grand Ave and was brought in to the Outfit by Tony Cap and Jack McGurn in like 1931. N*gger Joe I believe attended Joe B’s funeral in 1992 (one of the few Outfit guys to do so).

  Black Angelo,  Thank You for your compliment.  Yes the 26th St. and the Heights were powerful during this time period, but Elmwood Park was more powerful mainly because Jack Cerone was the Underboss of the Entire Outfit and all auxillary Crews were partnered with Auippa ( Extended Cicero Crew ) & Cerone ( Extended Elmwood Park Crew).  Also Elmwood Park has traditionally always been good earners. ( Especially when Marco became part of them). Would you not agree?  Auippa  & Cerone were the Chief Partners over everybody but they were not equal . Auippa was definitely superior and received the Lion’s share of their partnership.  I did not take anything purposely from Roemer’s Book.  If I said something similar to Roemer, then Maybe Roemer was correct about it.   Roemer was not completely wrong about everything,  he just didn’t understand the Street crew structure and dynamics.  He also was predjudice against men he didn’t like and he elevated Accardo too high.  Only an insider would have understood his blatant mistakes.  I did hear that Black Joe did want to at least semi retire. I stand corrected that he died soon after.  You’re correct that he did not die until the early 1990′s.   I was told that Blasi took the picture. If Roemer says he took the picture then Roemer was right. Also, the Chicago commision previouusly was only Ricca, Mooney & Accardo.  Auippa expanded it to 7 men in order to show New york and everybody else that Chicago Street crews were equal if not superior to any of the individual families in New York or anywhere else. In other words, each Street Crew was like a family but partnered and unified under the Dominent Crew, Cicero, headed  by Top Boss Joey Auippa, the most powerful Mafia Boss in the Country. The Chicago Commision was considerably more influential than New York.  Roemer had no idea of the real power of the Chicago Commision expanded by Auippa. Your thoughts on everything I’ve stated?

I do not know if Harry was ‘made’. His claim to fame was Joe Nick (his relative on his moms side), although, according to some immiditae family members of Joe, who i know well, Joe looked at Harry as a pain in his ass. However, Joe would do anything for him. Joe caused people to be made, who should have not been made, such as Angelini and Solly D, so, sure, he could have had Harry ‘made’. Harry was a serious person.  

Judy was Joe’s second wife, i met her a couple of times, but do not know her. i know her son, never met her daughter. However, i knew Gloria, his first wife well, and her daughters.

Dear The Don,
I had a close friendship with Ruthy, Harry’s wife. Harry did not receive the kind of money that Rocky used to brag about giving him when he was drunk, talking to undercover FBI agents, while sitting in bars not knowing who he was really talking to.

Joe,

I got a request to share editing capabilities from someone with an email address associated with your name. I just wanted to verify that it was indeed you. Thanks.

OK, check this out.http://mobcharts.wordpress.com/

Make sure you click on Publication 1 to see the chart. This is NOT going to be a blog. It’s just a method of hosting / displaying these charts in a way that is superior to Google Docs. If anyone has any better suggestions, let me know.

There are a lot of empty boxes, as you can see. So submit more names.

Joe Fosco, Joe Nicks first wife Gloria was Italian and that was Harry’s mom’s sister. I know you said you did not know his 2nd wife Judy (who he married in the 1970s after he got out of the can) but I dont believe she was Italian.

Don, I think its pretty accurate thus far. Your right Joe B and Cerone (being underboss) helped elevate Elmwood Park as the sub dominant crew (behind Cicero in that era).

And your right the Chicago Commission was set up essentially in the early 1970s by Obrien. And each area had a Boss and that Boss was the Crime Czar or head of his Crew and under that crew was different franchises run by MadeGuys. It worked very well.

One change Obrien did make that would not reflect the charts was if you grabbed an independent (in a area other than yours) he was yours.. no matter what crew you came from. This sometimes would cause conflict and involve alot of sit-downs and what not. But at least the crime families (in Chicago) followed the rules for the most part and did things based on getting permission and what not.

New York was kaos. The Gambinos and the Genoveses are the only ones that organized. And they just organized their rackets. You got power in New York by bloodshed and or whacking the Top Boss. That would never happen in Chicago… although according to most FEDS who worked in both cities they always claim Chicago was more treacherous and violent in keeping things organized.

To Thread Police, First of all, if Joe Fosco wanted to disrespect my leads then he wouldn’t have given them to the police department. Second of all, Joe Fosco, is after Criminal Justice. I am also, after Criminal Justice. And it would take a Criminal Mind to go against Justice.

The next thing is that, why do you care? If you do not have anyone that has been killed or victimized by the said persons in Joe’s articles, what’s it to you? The fact that he keeps on coming up with more articles on the Messino family, what does that tell you?

In each and every article Joe Fosco, has stated, that if there is anyone that has any leads to give it to him. So, How and why would you be against that? Also, if I encourage them, how would that be of any concernment of yours?

Unless, you have something to do with the people he has made public in his articles. Remember that, I am only speaking of those same people. HNA! I wonder??? Why would that bother you?

The thing is, that I found more evidence, and Joe has responded to me with a thank you! (and with a responsibility) So what’s it to you? I think that we have traveled on a path too close to the reality of the victimizers! (Joe and I) People, please remember the victims! SQE

I am thinking of changing my name to Special Quest Forum. It for people that are looking for Criminal Justice only!!! SQF

Even though4 comments are showing here http://mobcharts.wordpress.com/, comments have been DISABLED so please comment here. 

Again, it’s not a blog and the only time it’s going to be updated is when I make changes to the charts.

As I said, I met Judy a couple of times – when she was dating Art Nasser.

To Klasz, my suggestion back to you is, unless you have done your ‘Do Diligence” to investigate what you need to know about a situation, then don’t get involved. Next of all do you know someone that is missing? Or a victim of a crime, by the high crimes stated by Joe Messino?

Do you have someone close to you that is gone, and killed by the people in Joe Fosco’s articles? Now, don’t I have the right to want for more? That is more information and leads?  While you are sitting there eating cupscake, someone I was very close to is missing!

Now I have a message for all of you that go against my  SQE requests from Joe Fosco. God is going to punish you! Karma is a bad thing, especially, if it is bad karma! Someday, I hope you will be put in a position, that someone very special to you were taken away! You need to feel what it is like to know victims with no answers as what happened to them!  For the people that have fallen prey to a heinus crime, my heart goes out to you. I hope that in your heart of hearts that you never have to fall upon these cruel people in here that go against victims!

Now, I will continue until the body of my loved one is found and justice has been served! The unsolved murders still need leads. And because Joe Fosco, keeps bringing up more articles on the victims killers, well I feel that I belong here more then anyone else!

So one more time please, guys come forward. I know you have answers, please continue to email Joe Fosco your information on Joe Messino. Who ever emailed Joe Fosco, that Joe Messino lives across the street from Cupachino Cafe at Harlem / Addison, please tell us more.  It’s wrong that anyone should stop you from coming forward. I hung with the owners wife of that place, so Joe Messiono is in close proximity to some very close friends of mine. New id renamed, for a “Special Forum” for people that are interested in helping the families and find out more answers of the missing!  SQF

Tony, before you make a comment, I suggest that you do  Your “Do Diligence” the lead tho the reals cops. Notice , he does not object. So, with that being said. Unless, you have anything to help that is of real basis,I will ask you to not get involved with people that want to come forward in here like Lonestar! That’s why I have made a change to Special Quest Forum! SQF PS Tony, please grow Up! (if you can?) Oh yeah, how do you know that the thread police arent’ the vey people that Joe Fosco has given a lead to the real police on?

Let me just say this also, to anyone else, please do not, I mean do not discourage anyone from coming forward. There is something seriouly off center with Tony. He has threatened me before. He is not for Criminal Justice. Please, do not stop coming forward. He must get high and is criminal It seems like the more I describe the Elmwood Park circle, the more he keeps on. Huh, I wonder if ths Chris Tonto, is part of this group. Again, if Joe Fosco, didn’t think what I had to offer made sense, he wouldn’t have given the source and lead to the police!( i was trying to bring in more people from the circle to comment when they see I know about the Elmwood Park circle crowd) referring to the bar there! SQF

SQE,
For the record, as you know, I did not personally give anything to the police. I simply forwarded your info to someone who did (as far as I know). thank you.

If it was from an AOL account containing a 5-letter acronym as the email address and begins with the letter ‘a’, yes, it was I. Thanks.

I agree with your point about grabbing independents who were in different areas which caused a lot of sit downs and compromising.  I heard about that quite often.  It involved guys who did not do ‘business’ directly with one of the Powerful Street Crews.  They were grabbed right and left for street tax collections.  Phil Alderisio was very good at grabbing guys for street taxes that the Outfit didn’t want to be too close to in business.

Horsey,  I like the way you set up the Taylor St. Chart in the Mob Charts. Do not let anyone comment on it. I would remove John D’Arco. He was a high level associate who worked with Romie Nappi,  Pat Marcy and some other high level Outfit guys. He was not a made guy. Let’s keep Chart #1 at 60 guys and not keep adding because it will slowly become inaccurate. Did you see my posting for the new chart that I left for you last night? Are you setting up Chart#2 in the Mob Charts format also? Tell me your thoughts on everything I mentioned. I think what I’ve stated is the best way to keep everything accurate and under control. Do you follow what I’m saying. Thanks, looking forward to hearing from you. 

Joe, yes, and that you very muc. A nd ever goes int a police station phycically? Anyway, and thanks again. Oh, I just emailed you the reason I know about the Pizza Disco located in the circle in Elmwood Park. Like I said, I have a daughter in her 20′s from EP and I know 300 kids from the neighborhood. I would onserve pics from this bar and was a friend of that bar. The whole ponit is in a nit shell, is there are a lot of Elmwood Park kids that know each other. This would include the fact that Rada hangs with this Elmwood Park group. I’ve seen many of the guys in pics from facebook that hung at that bar. Somwhere in this world is where this drug despensery is at. My daughter and her friends had many friends from Holy Cross . It is not too impossible to think the the EP kids and the Holy Cross kids know each other. I was coming up with the mention of this to see, if some how someone from the EP group of kids would come in here or email you with answers. Thanks again. And, yes i think that I have enough to do things on my own, but it must be outside and high ranking PD .(oh, my daughter is a rehabilation counselor.) She had avoided all the drug player type kids from EP. That does mean I couldn’t spy on the neighborhood in FB.(hoodies type) SQF

Kkanz,  So let me translate your answer into clear language if I may and please stop me if I’m wrong. You think that the Chicago Outfit really had nothing to do with killing Kennedy. Correct?  If, Correct, then you believe it was a combination of other Power Factions who had special intersts in the Defense Department and wanted to have some kind of War for windfall profits and wanted Kennedy dead.  Correct?  You never really give straight answers to anything so I’m tring to be clear about your opinion like a lawyer tring to get a straight answer from somebody in court.  Again, Am I correct in understanding your opinion?  As far as the other part of your statement,  The Oufit still makes money from Poker Machines, Bookmaking & Union Activityand cetrtain types of White Collar Crime.  However,  I do agree with you that the Outfit today is currently running at a much slower pace compared to when your relative was active. They are probably operating totally at about 1/4 to 1/3 speed of what it used to be.

I don’t know how much money Harry got when he got out. But I’m sure by the time the story reached other made guys, the figure became bigger and bigger like all exaggerated stories, especially if Rocky got involved in the story. You are right about that point.

Joe,  Out of Curiosity, why do you think Angelini or Solly D. should not have been made?

Special Quest Forum,  Was that really you who made all those comments on the mobcharts.wordpress.com that Horsey set up?

Yes, Don. I forgive Horsey. I understand the reason I appear to be a dingbat. I was just hurt because I found such an important revelation and it’s not a good time for not belief in me. Also, do you see, how perspectives can chamge based on one little thing? Now, that it is known that my daughter has a Masters degree people are questioning my identity.  I wish Tony didn’t confuse me at a time when I was trying to gather infor for a lead. It caused me to see, a diffrent person might have been Tony. Also,I was still working out my lead. I was originally waiting for a year book pic. Now, Joe brought the pic to me. I thought he was trying to trick me at first. SQF 

What pic did I bring to you?

The Don,
To clarify, Personally, I am not saying that Don and Sol should not have been made. I made the statement with the the supposed rule in mind that a person must kill someone before being made (I realize that people like Romie Nappi should not have been made under such supposed rule). However, Joe Nick was known to have ‘made’ people who were not killers, which included Solly (I am not inferring that Harry was not a killer or that he was a killer. The point I am trying to make is that Joe was unorthodox about who he brought in to the Outfit, therefore, it is plausible that he brought Harry in) . After Solly was made in the early 80s, Johnny brought him the few others that were made over to the Black Ram in Des Plaines for dinner. Lee was waiting at the Black Ram for the dinner party to begin. When the group arrived, Lee was somewhat surprised to see Solly. When Lee found an opportunity he asked Johnny what Solly was “doing here.” Johnny stated, “Joe brought him in.” Lee shook his head and Johnny agreed. However, Joe was another guy known to be 3-miles away when people where getting killed. he was rarely involved in murders, but did take part in a couple.

Joe,  I see your point. Joe Nick, being  the Capo within the Extended Cicero Group, would push his Boss Joey Auippa, who happened to be the Top Boss of the Outfit, to approve certain men to be made who could then be put in supervisory positions to make more money for the Outfit. ( Occasionally the rules got bent a lttle since money would over rule). You know what Joe, Aleman was at least half Italian and MAYBE full Italian based upon the identity of his father. I believe he came from around Tayor St. and was a prolific killer. i believe Joe Nick pushed Auippa for approval to make Harry. In other words, I believe it was more likely than not that Aleman was made.

You need to apologize for those disgusting sexual and bodily functional comments you made on mobcharts.wordpress.com that Horsey set up.

Joe,  I’m  surprised you’ve made no comment about the language used by SQE on mobchartswordpress.com. All you can do is ask about a pic?

Dear Black,
Everything that I have stated about Pete, thus far, whether via ANP or in my federal filings, which can bee accessed through Pacer, would be all that I could share with you on the matter for now. I am sorry if this is not helpful, but I am operating on the advice of an attorney.
As to Michael, the monetary help that Marco provided him was very small, therefore, making whatever Michael did with it unimportant.

I may have tuned some of the content out when i skimmed it. im sorry if it offended anyone. i suppose i could read her content more thoroughly.

Joe I will emaiil you the pic I am referring about you have given me.I mean he got kicked off of here once, I don’t think that’s him. Please,. I mean he has gotten kicked off before. see whose matches., check to see if that is the same ip address of The Don. He is not like that. Plus, what swearing? email me what he is referring about? I recieved an apology, that’s enough for me. I do not plan. on looking into anymore charts so if it were a joke i do not care. Your pic will go into my website that the cops go in. Thanks, SQE

Joe, 

Re: Don Angel and Solly being made… When you say that Joe nick shouldn’t have brought them in, I assume you meant that he sponsored them, right? As a mere capo, he wouldn’t have been able to actually “make” them. If DiFronzo and Lee were disappointed in  Joe Nick’s guys, they would have had Aiuppa to blame for agreeing to “make” them, right?

At the end of the day, I think it was smart of the Outfit to make both of them, for a few reasons. Solly was a worker and brought in a lot of money. He did his time and didn’t snitch. Those are virtues, according to the bad guys.

Smarter yet, is when they made Don Angel. I don’t know him, but like everyone, I’ve heard he was a gambling GURU. He was 4-years older than Lefty Rosenthal, and I’ve heard several times that Don Angel taught Lefty everything he knew. (Recently, I read Pay, Quit, or Die, and Don Herion–who was Cook County’s one man crime fighting crew when it came to gambling rackets–said the same thing.) Say what you want about the book Casino, but I was told that Lefty’s “godfather” in the Chicago Outfit–who he refused to name in the book–was Don Angel. Now, getting to the point, it was smarter to “make” a money machine like Don Angel than try to arm him. It was better for business. He did his time, too, and never flipped.

Joe, again is that The Don? Please, see ip for address. He may be reported to the cops if it is not. Think about Joe, it may be the creeps that Hang with Rada? The pc will be emailed to you , so you remember. I wil not deal with a moran, I will report it to the cops as a potential friend of the lead you had given to the cops. I have many friends in FB that are cops with Chicago police connections. I will use them as a witness. Witness that you said you emailed me lead to the detectives. Yes, you said you never gota response, but nither do I ever. You have enemies too in here. My cops check on things for me from Facebook. There is one from Melrose Park. Yes, I have told them to come in here to see what this blog is about, and my sincerity to do a good deed. Ialready emailed you a Narcotics cop’s name, I have more! SQF

Joe, in your opinion did Accardo, Joe B, act as an advisor to Paul Ricca? Did you ever hear anything about that?

Paul liked Joe, very much. Paul thought of Joe as a good kid. He liked to playfully tease Joe. Perhaps Joe did not like it. When my relatives went to Joe’s house for a party, it was a common thing to see everyone greet Paul first. I would not say that Joe advised Paul as much as I would believe that Joe assisted him.

Dear Special…,
Perhaps you should find a better place to spend your time. ANP is focusing are different things now. Thanks for your interest.
Best wishes,
JF

You make good points Horse. I think this “who did this guy kill issue” is way over blown and not known to alot of people even MadeGuys themselves. There was alot of guys whacked in the 1970s for instance. From 1973 – 81 their was on average 10 murders a year related to the Outfit.

The Feds have placed most of those murders on like 5 to 6 people (half of those 6 being Wild Bunch members). If your willing to believe that NO one should been getting Made based on the “who did he kill reference”. If you dont believe that 5 or 6 guys are responsible for all those murders its safe to say… no one on these threads knows who did what and when and where in relation to murder.

It would not be smart to talk about murder to “outsiders” especially after what happened to Harry in 1977 and in 1997. And Solly was Made after Joe Nick died in 1989. Lee must of already been sick when he found out Solly was Made (this was the summer of 89). Rocky the underboss at the time sponsored Solly for membership and yes he did his time like a man and did not roll. I wonder if Lee would of shaked his head at that LOL.

BA, I’m starting to think that the Como Inn induction, c. 1989, was a bullshit story. Nick Calabrese said that “others” were made with he and his brother, Jimmy Marcello, Al Tocco, and Rocky Infelise in 1983, including Matassa, whose name came up, re: the Como Inn in 1989. 

I believe that Matassa was made in 1983, along with Solly who Nick might not have known or recognized at the time. I

 think that the Como Inn thing was made up by Lenny Patrick or some other informer, the same way someone invented the bullshit sit-down with Don Stephens, Lombardo, the DiFronzos, Fratto, and Messino.

If that is the case all bets are off on what any infromer says.. Marco is Made, Marco is Not Made. Solly Made in 83.. Solly not made in 83. Solly Made in 89. Solly not made in 89.

For the record Horsey I brought up on the threads months ago that their was conflicting stories when Matassa got made. One informer has him being Made in 83 another in 89. It was 89 and so was Solly in 89. I feel the “Como Inn” part my be made up. Me or a couple of my sources have no idea about that.

And I wonder why their aren’t other “Made” ceremonies the general public has heard about. The only one people no about is the 83 and 89 one. Their was Making Ceremony held in 1987 or 88 I believe this is when Poker DiForti, Tony Chariamonti, and Scarpelli was Made. Joe Nick sponsored the latter.

Scarpelli was an informer for a while to (before he mysteriously died in the MCC). Not sure what he told the Feds or who were really Made in the Outfit. Maybe he gave them some valuable info (he did tell them about some murders he was involved in).

I wonder why Lee Magnafichi is never on any Outfit flow charts of that era.. the FEDS had some real valuable snitches, made informants or informants very close to MadeGuys. It perplexs me honestly why Lee is no where to be found. The FEDS had Marco in the late 80s and 90s as the Man in Elmwood Park. And Yes I believe the sit-down with Don Stephes is bullshit, but not Solly being Made in 89. Sorry. He was not made before than.

I did deciphere your comments pretty well, I must admit. Not even the C.I.A. could decipher the other person’s messages you mentioned. I think you may be partially wrong about the Chicago Outfit not being involved at all with Kennedy’s assasination. An unholy alliance was formed and different factions were indeed involved which included Organized Crime, CIA and some Special Interest Groups.

Horsey,  You are correct. You probably didn’t see my post earlier to Joe. I addressed the same exact thing you said. Auippa, Ferriola’s Boss, would have had to approve the making. Did you see my postings about Chart#1 and Chart #2?  You haven’t responded about any of it.

The problem is that, you keep bringing up more articles that have to do with the same subject. No one believes, I hate that when you finally get down to the bottom of a situation and no one believes me. I didn’t go through the proper channels becuase you siad that I should go to you. That;s the law of Karma. I am planning on going directly to the police now. I need time off of work to. The Elm Leaves need to know how close that I got lead now. They have a story on him. The pic is the one in your article. You do recall that the original person, is someone Inever seen. SOB, what are the odds, I find the dude after 2 years of wondering and no one believes me. What do I want with him? It’s what did he wanted that counted, the most? I think you don’t believe me. It’s just common sense that it is him. I sent actual proof that theother situation existed. And that was Chicago Outfit Why couldn’t you believe that this is even closer. With a Permeating factor that  they are in the same area, so they all know each other?

Ok I have never used any language or content. What are you taking about? What language? I had never said any language! Joe Fosco, please explain to me what are you taking about? If someone is impersonating me, I would like to know? I have never swear on here? Joe Please, email me or facebook me what you are talking about?  I have never talked to anyone? Ony on this new issue, and I recieved an apology? I swear on that thing last week? What did it say?  Because I never said anything bad what so ever! SQE

Black Angelo,  I’m basically agreeing with you to a certain point. I think Nick Calabrese’s testimony was very accurate but not perfect. I also stated in the past that these making Ceremonies and ‘ who was involved with who killing someone’ are generally very private things and that a making ceremony might only have a few people there. Do you remember me saying that about Marco? These Making Ceremonies were not broadcasted across the Outfit when they happened.  After a while, a person can tell whether a guy is made by his STATURE within the organization and by who he is with and by the amount of power and influence he is allowed to exhibit. I mean, when you stop and think about it, a making Ceremony involves only words and a symbol at that moment in time and is some kind of formal acknowledgement.     It’s really what a person has done to get there and what a person does after they leave the Ceremony that matters. It’s the STATURE AND POSITON of the Man that really determines his true power. A making Ceremony might have only three people present:  The man being acknowledged, the Capo, and the Top Boss. Think about it. Your thoughts?

Don, I agree with you 1,000 %. And I do recall you saying that about Marco. If you ask me it would make no since to make more than 3 guys or more at a time. Just safer that way for a litnay of reasons. It’s supposed to be a secret thing, most Outfit guys (like Jimmy Marcello or a Marco) will always try and make you prove they are Made. But the problem those two individuals have is their STATURE is through the ceiling and they have crews. And Marco is 100 % Italian on top of everything else.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out when a guy is a somebody. I also have a source that says Shorty Lamantia was a MadeGuy 100 %. This may come as a bombshell but Frank Calabrese never really said Shorty was not Made. That idiot that writes for the Sun Times that bozo Wambir made it sound as if Frank was telling Shorty not to introduce him to the New York guys as a MadeGuy because “your not one”.. NOT TRUE.

I’m told Frank was telling Shorty to not tell any New York guy of my status and Yours ! (meaning Shortys status). Chicago is very secretive and Frank was trying to convey that in that recording. Frank didnt want those New York fellas in Milan to know his or Shorty’s status. he did not want to be introduced as a MadeGuy. He did not want Shorty acting like a big shot. The Sun Times Bozo manipulated what Frank said. Trust Me.

If Apes had a 2nd in command or right hand man everyone knew that individual was Shorty Lamantia. He LOVED Shorty. Shorty attended almost every important Outfit meeting with Apes in the 80s and 90s. 

Shorty was putting money out on the streets in the early 70s and even got his son Rocco of a blatant murder in 1979 by bribing a judge some 25000 dollars. He certainly was not a lightweight (no pun intended).

Inasmuch most Chicago MadeGuys go out of their way to not be seen as a MadeGuy. But then you have some that will tell people because “obviously” their STATURE does not reflect their Made status or they have some kind of insecure complex lol.

For the record, Joe has said in the past that he knows of a making ceremony that took place in a restaurant that was neither the ’83 or ’89 one. When pressed, he said he’d rather not go into detail. It’d be interesting to know who it involved.

I tend to think that Solly was made in 1983. And Joe even said that he was made in the early 80′s.

However, there is a wire-tap that exists of Infelise saying: “Solly was
made last night.  I sponsored him [...] I’m surprised they still
use fire and paper.” This was said in the late 80′s / early 90′s. Conflicting accounts.

the Don, I have read your messages. Sorry I did not respond at length. I haven’t been able to update the chart, or forge ahead with the new one because I’ve very recently encountered some unusual roadblocks with regard to my information technology infrastructure at home (i.e., My dog chewed the cable), and I can’t very well do the charts using my smart phone. Look for updates tonight or tomorrow.

For the record, yes, SQE apparently trolled the threads on the other site, where the Taylor Street chart is currently  posted, before I was able to disable comments. I was disturbed by these messages and will now take the opportunity to ask SQE to please cease and desist with posting such vulgar, off-color, and personal messages. Please seek help, SQE, and may god have mercy on your disturbed soul.

Thank you.

In an Italian American household, everyone knows the power of the woman.  I’m already pushing it by being on ANP.  She’s not thrillled about it.  When I looked at our chart on mobcharts.wordpress.com, my wife was looking at it with me.  Then, I went to the comments section.  My wife flipped out and got really offended and upset about it and forbid me to ever comment on ANP again unless this transgression was addressed.  I said let’s ignore it and she said no.  She’s correct.  That’s why I addressed it today.  Please remove comments made by a sick person and do not allow any comments to be made on mobcharts.wordpress.com.  Any comments should be made on ANP where there is some kind of normality and control.  The Chart looks real good and extremely accurate. Again, let’s leave the number of made men at 60, which represents at least 80% of grand total who were ‘active’ during this time period.  I would remove D’Arco, High Level associate but not a made man.  As far as the Non Italian faction of the Oufit, if you desire, We can list some names in this fashion. Muray Humphreys, Leader and then under him put Gus Alex, Ralph Pierce, Les Kruse, Hy Larner, Lenny Patrick & Eddie Vogel. It was my understanding, that these men were the responsibility of Humphreys.  We can then move on to Chart#2.  If you have questions about my layout, please ask me. We are going to demolish Roemer’s chart. 

Agree with everything you stated. The Outfit is not the Elks Lodge.  Some things are obvious after a short period of time.  If  I stand on top of a building and drop a nickel from the top, I don’t have to see the nickel hit the ground to know that it did in fact hit the ground.  If I were being acknowledged for my accomplishments and loyaltly and was being formally inducted into the 26th Street Crew back in 1983, the only people I would  have wanted present would have been me, Angelo LaPietra and Joey Auippa.

Dear Special…,
Whether you realize it or not, your comment is equivalent to lodging a false accusation of felony obstruction of justice against me. You have deeply offended me. I have never told you to withhold relevant information that could lead to a conviction in a murder case, requiring that you report to me and only me. I have tolerated you for as long as I could. Please find a new site to contribute to.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
JF

How hard could it be to understand that I lived in Elmwood Park and worked in the vicinity of Rada whom, also lived in Elmwood Park? Why is that such a brain sweat for you to pick up on?  I lived in Elmwood park so I saw Rada. So what? I only said that I saw him in facebook. Joe has mentioned Messino a thousand times. Don’t you think that it is frieghtened me that I ran into his nephew? I can’t wait until, I tell this all to the Elm Leaves Newspaper!

Horsey,  I hear what you’re saying. Let’s examine the facts. In the late 1980′s, Rocky was a made guy in the Cicero Crew running a franchise up in Lake County. He belonged to Capo Joe Ferriola and they were both part of the Extended Cicero Crew, headed by Top Boss, Joey Auippa. Now, Rocky’s two top assistants were Solly D. & Lou Marino. In 1989, either Solly D. & Lou Marino were already made and were Rocky’s partners in running the Franchise, or they were ‘ In Line ‘ to be made. What does ‘ In Line’ mean? Answer: Men who have qualified to be made and are already partners in a franchise and are already supervisors over the full time soldiers in that particular Sub Crew. I believe Solly D. & Lou Marino were in that position. I believe the partnership between Rocky and Joe Ferriola in this particular franchise was 50/50. Of course Joe Nick had this same arrangement with a couple of other made men who were involved in other franchises that didn’t involve Rocky. Now, the question would be were Solly D. and  Lou Marino Junior partners with Rocky or did he pay them like other soldiers. My opinion after reading the Good Ship Lollipop Court transscripts and reflecting back on comments made by my relative, that Solly D. &  Lou Marino were partners with Rocky. In other words, after Joe Ferriola got his share, Rocky split the remaining Profit 50% himself, 25% SollyD., & 25% Lou Marino. At the very least, Rocky and Lou Marino were basically made already BECAUSE OF THEIR STATURE but had not actually gone through the Ceremony. In Chicago, the Ceremony is not the most important thing. Many times it comes afterward when it’s convenient or when they get around to it. Or, maybe Solly D. & Lou Marino already went through the Ceremony earlier.  I don’t really know.  But, if push comes to shove, I would say that Solly D. & Lou Marino were already ACKNOWLEDGED as being made and the Ceremony is more of an after thought. The Ceremony is not the most important thing. THE  MAN MAKES the Ceremony, the Ceremony DOESN’T MAKE THE MAN.  Black Angelo, what are your thoughts ?

There is nothing there that logdes a false accuzation of obstruction of Justice. I never said anything like that. I even said I was about to go to the cops but I need more time off  of work! There is nothing there that says that!

Joe, there is nothing that states in that comment that says I should stay exclusively to you. How can you even make that staement when I just got through emailing you that I planned on starting with you first. Then I will get to other cops. How can you say that when, I in both facebook and through emails, I thanked you for helping me get all the things together, to bring it to the cops? I stated that same earlier in these feeds the same thing?

What I can’t understand is why, is the fact that I grew up in Elmwood Park and lived there, and worked there 2 years ago, and ran into Rada is hard for people to understand in here? Why would it so hard to understand that? So, I saw Rada? He lived in Elmwood Par/ Big deal so did I? So, I saw him in the neighborhood? Why do I have to be victimized because, I said that? How hard could it be to understand that he hang at the circle? Why is that a hard issue to accept?  Why do have to be traumatized by that?

Marino must have been made prior to the Spilotro murders in 1986.

Because the ruse was that Michael was to be made and Tony was going to move up to replace the imprisoned Lombardo only made guys were in attendance–which they were, only to kill them rather than bear witness to their supposed promotions.

What the hell did I do, but make a stament about Rada? Nothing more? why am I victimized because of that?

Joe Fosco, explain to me why am I victimized by talking about Rada? Why is the fact that he may be involved with Joe Messino, so hard to understand? Why is the fact that Hey, I saw him in facebook , so ahrd to understand? He is that close to murder victims families? I don’t understand how that is such a high crime?

Special Quest Explorer,
You are no longer wanted here because everyone is sick of your mysterious, incoherent comments and general bullshit. Please leave now. Your participation in the threads is no longer required. Thank you.

I want o know why it is important for a bunch of men to victimize a woman? You can say you don’t like that’s not good enough? Why do I have to be your victim?

Horsey,  Very good point!  Since Solly D. & Marino were equal, then Solly D. was made before the Spilotro murders. In fact, when Ferriola died in 1989, Rocky replaced Ferriola and Solly D. moved into Rock’s exact spot. Marino stayed the same and Bellavia moved into Solly D’s spot. If a ceremony took place in 1989, for all practical purposes, Solly D. was already made and the Ceremony was a formality that finally took place. That’s if there EVEN was a Ceremony in 1989 involving Solly D. and Matassa.

SQE,  YOU MADE DISGUSTING SEXUAL AND BODILY FLUID REMARKS ON HORSEY’S MOBCHARTSWORDPRESS.COM.  UNDER COMMENTS SECTION WHICH GREATLY OFFENDED A LOT OF PEOPLE AND SHOWED THAT YOU ARE SICK IN THE HEAD.  I ASKED YOU IF YOU MADE THOSE COMMENTS AND YOU ANSWERED  ‘ YES ‘.  THAT’S THE END OF IT.  CASE CLOSED.

There is no bullshit. All I asked or made a comment about was Rada. I am sorry, but you haven’t explained why is that a crime? First of all God is going to punish you. I know now that Joe is no longer Catholic. Joe sent my a chain letter of prayer, he asked me to quickly send it. I have emails from himtelling that you guys are idiots and crazy poeple! Infact, if it is not too, twisted, I think I will copy and paste how he talks about everyone behind thier back in he. What until you see, how he really, feels about you people. He asked me not to pay attention to what people say in here! Also, I apologize for my eyes being bad. I told Joe Fosco about my eye condition!

don,it would have been counter-productive for the chicago guys to murder kennedy.by the time he had served less than a year in office they had enough goods on him to totally destroy his image.kennedy knew this and ordered his brother to look the other way on many of their dealings.before he became president it was discussed but quickly nixed.after his assasination certain elements who had distant ties were manipulated into the picture to give the impression to the public of mob involvement.start decoding don lol…..

Kkanz,  I like your sense of humor, true Chicago! Well, on this subject, you may be very well correct. I have never gotten a strong feeling one way or the other about it. I never asked my relative about it either. Sometimes I think Chicago was at least part of it and sometimes I think maybe they had nothing to do with it, but were certainly glad when it happened. I would like to hear what Joe Fosco thinks about it. Maybe Willie mentioned something to him about it. 

I never made any body remarks. I never even seen a comment like that. What are you talking about? I have never even seen his chart? Just the one. What chart did this happen at? I have no clue what you are talking about. Ok, if this is true is thier anyone else that can tell me  what he is saying? Actually I may have a law suit after all! Who can tell me waht hs is saying? What sexual body fluid remarks what kind? Can someone tell me what he is saying. Could he be drunk? Joe, tell me what he means? Back to facebook ifyou want? What comments?
Sorry Joe, but, you’ll have to answer in facebook. Please explain what he is saying. I never even open up the charts. Just that one, where I saw the batsh@it word. I never opened up any others? What does he mean?  when was this. What date?

SQE,
This post is sincerely for your personal mental health.
I think you should seek medical attention. It’s not something that you should be ashamed of doing. Sometimes tragic experiences trigger “Paranoid thoughts.” You have symptoms of someone that needs medical attention.
I’m not a doctor but I really think you should seek help. The joke would be “Don’t go to Giachino.”  Please seek medical help. Not only for yourself but for the health of the threads on this site.

What messges. I have no clue what you are talking about. Joe please explain to me what he is referring about? I have no clue? Is this slander for me ? Who di d what? I have no clue? Joe I will trust your answer? what is he talking about? I am not going to play games. Joe what is he saying? I have nev r even looked into his charts. I have no interest in them. I never did! Joe, explain! I have no clue of any other site. What Taylor street? Is this a ploy? Please copy and paste what you are referring about? I may have a law suit? To that person? why didn’t Joe tell me about that? What is the name of the article? As long as there is someone lying on here about they are libel for slander? Until I get this information from Joe, as to who or what you are talking about, I will continue, beside he told me I can. He told me he just wanted me to go to the cops myself. He said that he thinks i have something to tell them. Just don’t tell the information on the site anymore? Joe this is wierd? Please explain?

 you i have heard popel on here talk about another site> I have no clue of any other site? I didn’t know that Joe Fosco ever even had another site? Joe can you tell me what this other site is about? I never even knew what people ment when they said of another site out there> I can sue now?

If Joe is no longer Catholic, I am now the Pope!

Just saying: I love this site. I have been reading every story on here to my Grandfather for the past week and a half. There has been so much activity on here lately that I can’t even keep up. (LOL)
I will quote him “That Don guy and Angelo know they’re sh*t” My Grandfather is up there in years, but knew most of the people we blog about. He always repeated the same thing to me about Outfit guys “If they ever need a favor from you, do it, if it won’t cause you to go to jail.” “Don’t ever ask them for a favor or they will have you hooked for all of your life.”

I want to know what is going on? Who is using my name? I just facebooked Joe Fsoco, and asked him what is going on? I also, emailed him? Now I am mad? I have a law suit against another person?
First of all, HF, I never once ever had a conversation with you other than, last week, regarding the batsh2t thing! I don’t swear, but I will sue that person? Is that was this doing slander about? I’ve nevr swore in my life, I am extremly shy, and this makes absolutly no sense to me? He need s explain, becuase someoneis using my identity in a place that I never even knew existed? And that is slander me? It  is wrong!!!!
Now, you all listen here, I just got out of the hospital with a heart condition last week. I have no clue that there is even a website out there that Joe Fsoco own other then this one nevr did Now why didn’t he tell me this? He responds to me in facebook when I have concerns? Why didn’t he ever ask me about this?
I am mad! I have no clue  another website has ever even been out there!! EVER!! EVER!!!

No joke, I have no clue about any websites other then this one. If there is someone using my name out there I want to know. I will sue! What are you talking about? All I said was a question of Rada? nothing esle?  That’s none of your business? What is my business is someone saying they are me aand using my identity to do foul acts and swaer. I don’t swear!!  EVER!! EVER!!! I never even knew Joe had another website that existed! EVER!!!

It’s that you just don’t know what I am talking about. Look you seem sincere, please tell me about another website out there that some person is doing foul things and saying that they are me. Please, do your do diligence to investigate what you need to know about a situation before giving advice.
It’s becuase you don ‘t knoow what I am talking about !!!!! Not crazyness!

It ‘s a medifore I will sue. do me a favor, if you are catholice then help me find out who is telling people that they are me on some website? I hate people that are proffessional lyers. The just do evil!  Please tell me more about this website that has someone mocking me! I had someone ly before in my life and that is why I ended going this far to get that person put away!!

Just tell me about this other site, I am a church going person. I have a beautiful daughter. I don’t believe in swearing or bad things. Please just tell me what is going on with someone using my name or identity doing things that I don’t even know exist in life?

Don and Horse, Solly was not Made until 1989. Rocky sponsored him and had nothing to do with the ceremony. He did attend though. I think Rock was a little shocked “they used fire and paper” because the old gaurd (meaning Obrien) had been put away. But Black Sam kept to the old presidure in the ceremony.

When the Spilotro brothers walked to their death trap they was greeted by MadeGuys and guys that was either getting a “promotion” or being (they thought) “Made” that day. For the record those guys where all wearing gloves once they hit that basement. So it was not like they was trying to hide what was about to happen to them (meaning the Spilotros).

The whole set up was what was going on upstairs. Black Sam and Johnny DiFronzo and Joe Nick had the brothers believing it was a legit ceremony (not the killers downstairs). All though i’m told they (the bosses) wanted The Mooch Eboli and Nick Calabrese to greet the brothers since they new the Spilotros. I’m also told LT Zizzo (Trucker) was one of the guys in the basement and was wearing goggles.

Louie was in fact Made before Solly but that does not mean Solly had to be Made also because of their equal status in STATURE. 

For Instance, Donny Scalise was Made before Tony Dote. But Marco treated them as equal partners in his crew. Tony was even Marco’s 2nd in command. even though Scalise was Made. Translation.. Solly D was still going to be Rocky’s 2nd in command no matter what even if Louie was Made before. The Made thing i’m told is just formality. For the record, I am told Lou Marino is Made as is Bobby Salerno and Gahbeet.

Black Angelo,  You do agree that the Ceremony is not the end all for everything. Correct? I mean a guy has to ALREADY have the stuture before he goes through the actual ceremony. So, with that aside, it’s your belief that Lou Marino was actually made or achieved made STATURE before Solly D. Very interesting. If  solly D. was made in 1989, then Lou marino got made in 1989 or 1990.  When do you think Lou Marino was made? As far as Marco’s crew in 1994, Scalise wasn’t in his crew at that time. Remember? We talked about that before. Even though Scalise was out, he didn’t join Marco at that time. Again, your thoughts?

Black Angelo,  Upon further investigation I agree with you 100% that Solly D. got made in 1989.  My question now is when did Lou Marino get made?  That’s what I’m curious about.  I agree Bellavia was made around that time. By 1989, after Ferriola had died,  Rocky became the Capo within the extended Cicero Crew to replace Joe Nick.  Under Rocky were SollyD., Lou Marino & Robert Bellavia for sure.  All three men were overseeing 3 franchises. So, in a way it really doesn’t matter when Lou Marino got made. But out of Curiosity, I would like to know your opinion.  Also, as a side question that is related to my post right above, when did Scalise actually start to work closely with Marco?  It had to be after the 1994 problem.

I would like to know what you are talking about? I expect a public apology. I have no clue as to whatyour talking about. I have never been on any site of Joe Fosco other then this one, and have never once talked to The Don about being on any site. NEVER!! EVER!!! boy am I mad now. You thought that I was mad before!
That is slander and that is very serious thing that you are saying! I never swear, I am a church going person. I would never, ever make any kind of vagour noises in any site at any time! My daughter works for the state as  social worker! We are good law abiding people and we do not absolutley DO NOT make vagour sounds at all. Any WhERE WHATS EVER! THAT”S A VERY SERIOUS THING THAT YOU ARE SAYING!! I CAN PERSUE THE LAW AS AS LAWSUIT ON THAT ONE!! NOW JOE FOSCO IS THE DON MAKIG THIS UP OR DID THIS REALLY TAKE PLACE?

This a very serious accusation! I had never spoken to Don in my live  EVER!!! IT IS PUBLIC SLANDER TO PURSUE SOMONE’S IDENTiTY AS FRUAD THEM! ESPECAILY PUBLICALLY!

Is that not a class Action law suit of public slander when you publically humiliate and comit fruad against someones identity? Let me see, first there was the Batsh@T that was implied. Then someone is saying I did something I have no clue existed. Now why would I go to some other wensite of Joe’s and swear and make noise of body fluids? I have no clue what this is about, but no one is above the law!!

In the interest of avoiding arguments, I have purposely refrained from disagreeing with a small number of items in the last few threads, especially this one (I realize that I have no way of proving my knowledge beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, see no reason to argue). For the most part, I think all of you are accurate. However, I cannot sit still and remain silent on a couple of issues. Rocky was made well prior to 1989. In addition, Solly was made in the early 80s; and Solly was the boss of Lake County (not Rocky). Say what you want, but I will not speak on the subject again, as I wish to avoid arguments (again, especially when said arguments are not backed up with ironclad evidence that is irrefutable). I have added this comment to simply indicate my position for the record. Thank you.

PS,
I am sorry about the nuisance that one of the commenter’s has been. The person will be prevented from disturbing the treads very soon.

Joe,  Everybody agrees Rocky was made way before 1989. The question is about Solly D.  Was Solly D. made in 1989 or was Solly made earlier? That is the question. Rocky Infelice does mention on tape something about Solly D. just getting made in 1989. This supposedly happened right after Joe Nick Died. Before 1989, Rocky was the Boss of the franchise up in Lake County and Solly D. &  Lou Marino were his top assistants, at least according to the Goodship Lollipop court documents. they also state that Rocky became the Capo in 1989 AND THAT’S WHEN Solly D. became the Boss of the Franchise. The one thing that doesn’t quite make sense to me would be the time frame of Lou Marino being made. How could Lou be made before Solly D.? Your further thoughts?

its seems every time you talk you make VAGOUR sounds.lighten up lady before you give urself a stroke….

Rocky made in the 70′s, Solly well before 1989.  Tornebene should be on the 1st chart under Cicero/ Auippa.

Joe, don’t you think it is only fair that you or anyone else, should atleast play fair and tell me why someone put comments somewhere on a wordpress that I never knew existed in life? Now,, how come I get no answers? Someone used my name to say they were me. I have no clue what and who that was about, yet, I was accused. Now, nobody has the courage to at least tell me what they are talking about? If it bothered them so much and was an issue, why can’t they tell me what they mean, since they thought it was me? Actually, why can’t you?

Of course Rocky was Made prior to 1989. Never said otherwise. The Don said Rocky was boss of Lake County. But I think he was refering to Solly D. And nobody has “ironclad evidence that is irrefutable” of any making ceremony unless he/she was present themselves or had a tape recording device or video to capture said ceremony.

Lou was a killer and Lou was 7 years older than Solly D. That helps when getting Made first but not in rank. Sollys assention was faster. In a Top Boss scenerio that kind of thing will help but not normally.

For Instance Rocky was 7 years or so older than Joe Nick. Joe Nick was more powerful. Just as Joe Nick, Joey Lombardo, Angelo and Jimmy Lapietra, Apes and Johnny DiFronzo where all older than Turk. But Turk was more powerful.

The Don, Lou got Made between 1985-88. I could double check though with someone. As for Donny Scalise he started working closely with Marco in like 1966/67. He met Donny through Marcos cousin Roland who was a police officer. Donny at the time was a police officer also and a super rough guy. He did “things” for Marco. He officially became part of Marco’s crew in the early 1970s. Tony Dote was 27 years old when he joined Marco’s crew this would of been 1979.

SQE,  I’m going to explain this one more time and THAT’S IT. Horsey put the Taylor St. chart on something called mobcharts.wordpress.com . There was a section called comments. within the comment section there were several comments that were highly offensive and showed mental instability. The comments had your name attached to them. After all the complaining, the comments have now been removed by Horsey. They were disgusting comments. You can find mobcharts.wordpress.com in one of the threads on here and you can see where it takes you. Joe Fosco did not create it. If you did not make the comments , then you’ll have to discuss it with Joe Fosco. I WILL NOT comment on this anymore. The Don

I have a feeling that you are too busy playing games! Do you ever think that your commentator has something to say, that’s not Macho? C’mon charts? When are you boys going to grow up?

Father Guido,  Agree with you about Tornebene. I forgot about him but I had him going on the second chart. Rocky was probably made in the late 1970′s. However, Rocky Infelice would disagree with you about Solly D. He says on tape that Solly D. actually went through the Ceremony right after Ferriola died in 1989. The only other logical explanation would be that Solly D. was put in position before 1989 and for all practical purposes was made, but didn’t actually go through the Ceremony until 1989. All this dialogue about when a guy was made becomes very subjective and in my opinion, a guy is made when he is put into the postion of a made guy. I think the Ceremony is an afterthought that they get around to when they feel like it. That’s just my take on it.

Don, I agree with you. Very well said.  Solly was moving up around 1986 from what I understand, is all I ment.  I do not have concrete evidence on when he was Made. It is very subjective.

I believe the tape was taken when Rocky was speaking with BJ, and it could be that it was his way of reminding BJ to fall in line with Solly.  BJ ran gambling for Rocky in Cicero before he moved to Lake County with Rocky in expansion.  This is my opinion not iron clad.  Ironically it was his fear that Solly would get rid of BJ or knock him down, if Rocky was gone, that got BJ to flip, according to BJ.

Dear Joe,

As you have noticed, there was a malicious sower of discord at-large in your threads for the last several months. It began reaching a crescendo yesterday evening with no apparent end in sight. Many of us ran for cover, indeed. Miraculously, it seems to have stopped as abruptly and mysteriously as it all began, which is probably due to the efforts and ANP’s skilled and dutiful IT support staff. I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for dealing with this matter swiftly and directly, much in the same way that Saint George of Lydda slayed the dragon (thus restoring to the good people of Silene their freshwater supply). The comments submitted by this blackguard were unintelligible and inappropriate. Such comments are no longer allowed in the threads at ANP, as you know. Onward and upward, I say. Let’s move on and try to purge from our collective memory the humorless and undoubtedly schizophrenic commentary of you-know-who. 

If you-know-who is still out there, lurking somewhere out on the fringes of cyberspace like a deranged, drooling voyeur, let us not fear. Let us stand fast and tall, and if the urge should strike us, join hands and pray–pray that somewhere out there, someone of great wisdom and resolve has the presence of mind to have you-know-who promptly committed to a lunatic asylum.

Godspeed, Joe.

~Thread Police

Amen,  Thread Police.  If you noticed, SQE got a sex change and is now the Macho Man. By the way, I didn’t run for cover.

The Don, please excuse the delay. I’ve had some computer problems at home and was avoiding the threads to a certain extent because of SQE’s clownery.https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1zVRdBDJ8nJGfkROfxN6NlRqY20KeUt1jEqA5BODscFg/edit?hl=en_US

The Don, there’s an issue I wanted to preemptively address so it doesn’t derail progress on the chart. The Chinatown box looks correct, obviously, but some would argue that Skid Caruso was Torello’s underboss, instead of LaPietra, and that when Turk died, Skid was capo from that moment until he later died in 1983. According to this theory, LaPietra succeeded Caruso in the early 80′s. Worth mentioning also are those Calabrese prison tapes in which Frank Sr. says that Angelo Lapietra was never able “to win” with Turk. It’s actually been said that Torello  didn’t even like LaPietra. 

I don’t think that Skid was really ever capo. Someone in the threads mentioned in the past that Skid was a made guy in the neighborhood who everyone treated as if he were a boss, but he never was. This seems reasonable.What are your thoughts?

Skids Caruso was definately a Capo/Boss LOL. He was Taylor Street 1st off and his regime coincided with the death of his father in law Bruno Roti in 1957 and when Mooney took over the whole Outfit in 1957. Turk was not 26th street then in that era (he was under FiFi and Westside Lietunant). Around the early to mid 1970s Skids took a backseat and fell in line with the new regime change. Obrien made Turk a Boss of 1st ward, Taylor Street and 26th street. Also Skids had a very very close relationship to Gus and Sam Alex and most importanly to Paul Ricca. Skids youngest son Toots had a good relationship with Ricca also. He was the go between for a while for his father in the early 70s. By the way it was smart on Obrien’s part to never knock down Skids (whose loyalty was Taylor Street Ext.) for alot of reasons.

Dear Officer,
Your eloquent note was extremely enlightening. Thank you.
JF

THE FIRST THING ANYONE WHO ASSUMES YOUR IDENTITY SHOULD DO IS GET THEIR HEAD EXAMINED….

Joe,  I noticed all the comments from SQE changed to Macho and now back to SQE.  Is there a way for you to make an exception and delete all that ridiculous incoherent Bullshit from all the threads.  it was all a farce anyway.  Trust me, No One would miss it.  I HATE having to see it,  or at least delete all of it from the Sam Moe Giancana threads. Please consider. Thank You

Horsey,  First order of business, can you go to the Taylor St. Chart and remove John D’Arco. He was a high level Associate who took orders from Nappi & Marcy. He was not a made guy. Next, please insert in the non Italian box Murrey Humphreys as the Leader. Under him put 6 names:  Gus Alex, Ralph Pierce, Les Kruse, HyLarner, Lenny Patrick & Eddie Vogel. Lastly, remove Ralph Capone ( who was pretty much retired) and insert Al Tornebene. Let me know when you’ve made those changes. Thank you.

In 1957, Skids Caruso took over for Bruno Roti. He was a strong made guy who operated in the 26th St. area. He was not a Capo. However, between 1979 and 1983, he might have been the Capo of the 26th St. crew after Turk Torello’s death.  Then, in 1983 after skids Caruso died, then  Angelo LaPietra took over. I’m checking on it.

Capo’s/Area Bosses in Chinatown/26th Street 1931 – present:

Bruno Roti 1931 – 1957
Skids Caruso 1957-1972/73
Turk Torello 1972/73 – 1979
Angelo LaPietra 1979 – 86
James LaPietra 1986 – 93
Apes Monteleone 1993 – 2001
Anthony “Hatch” Chiaramonti   2001
Jimmy Inendino (November 2001) – 2002
Toots Caruso 2002 – 2008
Jimmy I / Toots 2008 – present

Black Angelo,  Mostly correct. Before 1973, 26th Street was covered by Taylor St. Bruno Roti, made guy 1931-1957, Skids Caruso, made guy 1957-1973, Turk Torello Capo, 1973-1979, Angelo LaPietra Capo 1979-1986, James LaPietra Capo 1986-1993, Apes Monteleone Capo 1993-2001, Toots Caruso 2002-present. Jimmy I is the underboss to Caruso. Anthony Chiaramonti was a made guy in the extended Cicero Crew. He was never the Capo of 26th St for one year. Respectfully disagree.

Horsey,  Skids Caruso was a strong made guy under Torello. When Torello died, LaPietra became the Capo. Leave LaPietra as underboss to Torello. From 1957 to 1973, Skids Caruso belonged to the Taylor St. crew and ran a FRANCHISE in the 26th St area. After 1973, the remainder of the Taylor St. Crew shifted 16 blocks south and became a full Crew with a Capo. That person was Turk Torello. After he died, Angelo LaPietra became the Capo. Black Angelo is calling Skids Caruso a Capo. What he really means is that Skids Caruso was a made guy running a franchise for the Taylor St. Crew from 1957 to 1973.

Trying to figure out the Outfit and its heirarchy is not as simple as some think. For Instance their is some connection with 26th street, Taylor Street, Cicero and 1st ward (and now the Heights). In the era 1957 – 73. Pat Marcy was essentially a Mob Boss (1st Ward). He could order murders, save a life, have sit downs and the other hitmen and murders always came to see him at his joint.

As for Skids, I know Gus Alex and Skids where this/close and partners in gambling. Skids most definatly took over after his father in laws death in 1957.

I threw Chiaramonti in their because he’s probably the only guy in Outfit history to litterally take a territory by FORCE (after Apes death in Jan 2001). I will tell you if Black Sam had been alive that was suppossed to be the Hatchs territory.

Joe Fosco, Don, Horse and others this may come as a bombshell to your chart or your hiearchy system 1973 – 86. Understand based on what the Don and others have stated if something happen to the Top Boss than the next powerbase would take over. So if something happened to Obrien than Cerone (his alleged Underboss) would be Top Boss.

True story coincidentally on the same week Turk Torello died in April 1979. Obrien had a heart attack and nearly died himself. Alot of the younger MadeGuys in the Outfit held a secret meeting to figure out who was going to be the next boss if Obrien died. They came to the conclusion Turk would of been the clear choice. Cerone, Joey Lombardo, Al Pilitto, Angelo LaPietra and Black Sam where all considered. Cerone was veto’d for the Top Spot because he was deemed “to hot headed”. The meeting took place in Allen Dorfmans office in 79.

The point i’m trying to make is I think Turk was more than just some capo of Chinatown/26 street (way above that). He was more powerful than Cerone too. Take all this into consideration while making that new chart. Marco Damico I believe to was heavily involved in 26th street affairs (pertaining to gambling) from 1973 – 79 in a supervisors role. Than again he was under Turk during this era. I’m gonna double check with someone tomorrow on the latter.

Marcy could request a murder but it had to be approved by Mooney or Ricca. All murders had to be approved by the Top Bosses of the Outfit. They control every made guys gun. Outfit rule #1. However, that aside,  I agree about how men from all over the City would see Marcy. Marcy also had a couple of soldiers who worked directly under him. They assisted him with making drop offs.  That’s why He and Romie Nappi were made guys. Romie Nappi And Pat Marcy are two of the top 15 made guys in the Outfit which was the Strongest Mafia group in the Country at that time! The Hatch would have had to work with the 26th St. crew, not take it over. Do not underestimate the power of the 26th St. Crew.  Caruso, Jimmy I. and the other made men and soldiers in that group are tough fucking people.

Black Angelo,  I’m gonna surprise you with this one.  I know you think I’m very regimented in my view of the Oufit.  However, there is a side to my view which is actually quite flexable at times.  I learned it from my relative when I would make assumptions in our discussions.  Most of the time My assumption was correct, but sometimes my assumption was wrong and he would explain to me why it was wrong.  Now, let me address your posting above me.  If Joey Auippa, The Boss of Cicero and the Top Boss in the Outfit had died,  it is NOT necessarily true that the UnderBoss of the entire outfit, Jack Cerone, would have become the Top Boss.  What do you think of that!  Did I surprise you?  Since Cerone was powerful but not well liked, and since the extended Cicero Crew was such A POWERHOUSE,  it is possible that Sam Carlisi would not only have become the Boss of the Extended Cicero Crew, but may very well have become the TOP BOSS of the Oufit.  Cicero probably would have remained the Dominent Crew.  Why do I say this? Because Power within the Outfit is not soley determined by the merit of the individual.  It is a combination of the individual’s merits and the POWER BASE OF HIS CREW.  Now, tell me I didn’t surprise you with that answer.

Don , Very well stated. You did in fact surprise me. The Underboss does not always get the nod. So inasmuch Johnny DiFronzo and Elmwood Park did a hell of a job building up his “arms” (to use a nucleaur war metaphor) in order to grab the Top Boss spot in 1992 (After Black Sams whole crew went away). He had the Power Base of his Crew and his own individual merits. Now if Johnny was to die tomorrow based on that same premiss we just talked about… it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out who would become Top Boss…

Black Angelo,  You are a clever man.  You have used my own logic and personal ‘ training ‘ to force me to give you the answer you want to hear. Well, we both know exactly what you mean.  Let me throw you one slight curve.  If DiFronzo were to die tomorrow,  I believe the Extended Elite Elmwood Park Crew would be divided into two major Crews.  One would be Elmwood Park headed by Marco D’Amico and the other would be called the North Side Crew headed by Joey Andriacchi.  You would then have 5 Crews:  Elmwood Park, North Side, Cicero, Grand Ave. & 26th St. If Jimmy Marcello were to get out of prison,  it’s possible that The Cicero Crew would be Dominent,  Elmwood Park Sub Dominent,  and then the other 3.  However, If John DiFronzo were to die tomorrow AND Jimmy Marcello does NOT win his Appeal,  then based upon the current situation,  Elmwood Park Headed By Marco D’Amico would be the Dominent Crew with the other 4 crews  as their partners.   Also, one of the other determining factors would be the strong political connections of  John DiFronzo.  If he died,  I believe those connections would be assumed as much as possible by Marco & Pete DiFronzo.  Joey A. would head the North Side Crew and would have to deal with Marco.  If Not, then sadley, the North Side Crew under Joey A. would be a bit stagnate while he was alive but would be more active after He ( Joey A. ) would die.  That’s my take on your hypothetical question.

Done.

For what it’s worth, Frank Calabrese unwittingly provided his entire history as a gangster, starting  in 1968 before he was even made, on those Family Secrets recordings. There’s mention of Turk, Angelo & James LaPietra, and Johnny Apes, but no mention of / reference to of Skid Caruso, whatsoever .

Black Angelo, you made it sound as if Steve Warmbir had some kind of agenda when he wrote the blog entry about LaMantia not being a made guy. He didn’t just make the story up and didn’t distort what was captured on the wiretap. Besides, Warmbir wasn’t the only journalist who reported the story that way. What would any of them have to gain by casting Shorty’s legacy in a negative light by railroading him in news stories?

Warmbir’s story was extracted from one of the prison tapes, obviously, and Frank C’s own words on the recording are FAR more scathing that Warmbir’s article. In fact, I think it takes very selective reading to interpret it any other way. 

I’m not saying that Shorty didn’t play some role in the whole thing down in Chinatown. I know that his daughter, Denise, is (or was) married to Casey, and that he drove Chiaramonti to a meeting with DiFazio, and everything else people point to when they are defending him.
I know you have been told one thing about Shorty. For what it’s worth, I have been told that Shorty liked to make a big deal about himself when he could get away with it. Specifically, I was told that he liked being a big fish in a small pond rather than a small fish in a big pond, meaning he was a Big Shot to his family, friends, and neighborhood people who were Outfit gawkers; however, when he was with the real guys–the actual crew guys–he was a soldier on good days and, on bad days, he was a tag-along to whoever was around.

First of all I have never said anything melicious or bad. I did recieve your messgae that you will help me with a lawyer Joe. i will send it that are working with the 2 detectives on the 2 muder cases you have run sories on. First of all I have no clue of any other website. Second of all i have never said anything wrong on here. but, about the 2 murders in the neighborhod.

For some reason you believe that I have alaw suit for “obstrution of Justice.” I will facebook the copy and paste and the additional worry you have on that subject? I will teel them to tell these detectives that someone is playing games. It is with my understanding that I can or they can sapeeana remote viewing of websites. I know this for a fact because my web techs have done this for me.

I have know clue as to, why you need a lawyer for an “Obstruction of Justice case” I will let those families that talk to thier detectives look into this? Huh?

Now, all I have ever talked about is the Catalano family and Defillipis. Nothing else. Nothing bad. I will have the Detectives have this information. I have no clue as to what you are talking about. One is marion Gonzalez. The other is whomever the detectives are on the 2 murder cases. Huh? Somethings Sneaky in neakyville. Huh?

Because I am helping others, and I am a victims advocate? Let the detectives decide if I wasn’t doing the right thing by coming in here and getting people from the neighborhood to come forward! Huh? I thought that Joe was someone that wanted to help? Huh? I don’t get it?

So far so good I have facebooked the Catalano family the possibllty of someone sabotaging my identity on Joe’s site to give to their detectives. I am a witness for the state. I would never do that. However, the killers would. This sabotage is going to Mario Gonzalez.
I remember when I found pooh, in a white meat bag out side my door step. That was reported to the detectives. Antoher thing that happened to me was the JJ peppers again, I have never said anything but had questions on the Rada  on the 2  murders.  I went straight to Mario Gonzalez on that one!  It’s that one little thing that trips a person up. You’d be surprised what the FBI find as a motive of evidence.

I don’t think Warmbir had a agenda against Shorty. I just think he is wrong and misguided. For instance he probably thinks Joe B was Top Boss that ruled Chicago for 50 years lol. That doesnt mean he would have an agenda against Ricca or Giancana. That would mean he is flat out wrong and misguided. He called Fat Sarno a top boss to LOL ! Flat out wrong. But not just Warmbir but any other journalist who does the same.

Call Lamantia a tag along all you want. But if their was an important Outfit meeting pertaining to unions, or 26th street affairs. Shorty always was their or was told to be present by bosses in that area. Frank C was not their rarely if ever.

You want more evidence Shorty was a “real guy”, Shorty Lamantia presided over the infamous weekly ”Captain’s Meetings” with James LaPietra throughout the late 1980s at the Itlaian American Club. This has been witnessed and testified under oath as fact. Shorty wasnt some wanna be Big Shot. He was a Big Shot ! That was apparent and especially during James LaPietra and Apes Monteleone’s regimes. 

Hatch tried to do what LaPietra did which was move in and take over.  As you know the area has a hold on city jobs, trucking, as well as more traditional rackets. The Difference is that Auippa approved LaPietra “moving in” and Difronzo must not have signed off on Hatch’s move.  The Caruso or extended Roti family is “intrenched” in the area, and hold many valuable connections which allowed them, father and son to stay on during the LaPietra’s era.  I agree that Black Sam promised this area to his guy, Hatch.  Joe F. published his account of Hatch’s murder.  In my opinion 26th street was also in Hatch’s murder, meaning Jimmy I and Toots.  I will also condend that it was this uncertain truce between the “Caruso’s” that contributed to Angelo L’s surly disposition, and fortress of a home. LOL. 

 I’m just hoping that the police can use this sabotage if my creditable witness, as well as a witness for the state as warrant to sapeana Joe Fosco’ Source. I need to look up the law and see what are the option that the police can do to get to Joe Fosco’s source. This may be it! I need the detectives to look up Joe Fosco’s creditials and see if  he is a reporter.  In other words, what are the grounds inwhich Joe Fosco has a law leg to stand on that he has not given them his source?

Very Clever lol. The Don, Your hypothetical was very well stated. Let me go futher… if Jimmy Marcello and Marco posses some of the same attributes. Their involved in the same rackets (but Marco is more established in all avenues of Gambling). These are “established street guys with their own crews” not some “figurehead types” like an Andriacchi or Pete DiFronzo. Who are more like everyday buisnessmen in society. 

Ironically Johnny DiFronzo ” a figurehead type” himself understands this. He knows his strengths and his weaknesess. A sign of any smart leader. That is why Marco is in the postion he is in now and the power he has. 

However I could see Marco and Pete running things together. All 3 DiFronzo brothers have a close relationship with Marco.

OK, you win, Black Angelo.

Joe,

I am going to keep reading the articles here ANP and will probably follow the threads to some extent, but I feel like it would be best if I stop commenting, at least until this situation with SQE gets straightened out. I haven’t had the foggiest idea of what he or she’s been talking about all these months, nor does anyone else. I’m tired of it, frankly.

I am convinced that SQE is just some troublemaker who is trolling for his or her entertainment, as one will do from time to time. We’ve all done it at some point. No big deal. But this has gone on far too long now, and it’s turned into kind of a headache for me. If SQE’s goal was to deter me from posting comments, then SQE has succeeded.

If, by chance, SQE is actually a genuine commenter, I still don’t see how he or she could actually believe that her comments could possibly make any sense to any of us. If SQE truly is concerned about getting to the bottom of a pair of real-life murders, then SQE should leave the detective work to the appropriate law enforcement agencies. 

SQE made some bizarre comments in this thread today, which really pissed me off, regardless of whether SQE is a troll or a genuine reader. I interpreted these remarks as meaning that you were going to help her retain an attorney to assist her in suing me for the good-natured, satirical ANP chart and for the comments that were posted and immediately removed from the WordPress page that was hosting the PDF of my Taylor Street chart. (If SQE really is a genuine commenter, she is still anonymous, and while an anonymous user can be sued for defamation, an anonymous victim cannot collect damages, since his or her actual reputation cannot be damaged, since no one knows who he or she is.)

Anyway, I love this site and all its articles and threads, but until this all gets straightened out, I am just a spectator not a participant. 

Good luck with the book and continued good health.

-HF.

to barzone,a class action suit is brought on by a GROUP of people that have suffered damages based on a misrepresentation of a product.where did your daughter get her degree in mental health,walgreens? if she is not capable of seeing you need help she has legit grounds for a suit against her school…

I have never made any comment and it will be reported it to the detectives as admissible evidence! God, how someone can pooh in a meat bag at my door step, is beyond me! But, that was given to the detectives! Don’t you think that this is also admissible evidence to give to the police. This is the 3 rd event. The 2 nd the event at JJ Peppers. it shows that someone is watching me!!

Horse, if you have noticed or havent. I’ve never responded to that subject that has the 3 letter acronyms. I’ve never even mentioned he/she in the threads. The person who you are refering to is so irrelevant to me I won’t even give them the time of day to even acknowledge their presence.

I could care less if Joe Fosco bans them. They’re that irrelevant to me. Every time their is a post by said individual I simply scroll over it. I two post along time ago by said individual and that was enough for me to put them in my blinders.
 
The mistake you, the don, tony, Chitowndago and even Joe Fosco (to a certain extent) made was responding or getting in dialogue with this schizophrenic crack pot. That gave the 3 acronym blogger fuel. That person with the 3 letter acronym can mention Black Angelo first time in one of their post if they want. I’ll never no because I dont read their post anymore (I scroll by). 

Even that guy on You Tube from Palatine that sells auto insurance can mention Black Angelo if he wants. I dont give a fuck. They’ll come to find out they will reach a dead end in the road (to use a figure of speech) messing with this Sicilian ex-Leatherneck Vietnam vet. I’m not enticed easily by Mickey Mouse antics or bullshit. But I can understand why you’ve had enough of that person with the 3 acronyms and rather leave the site. Be well Horse.

Guido, 26th street had ALOT to do with Hatch’s murder. Their is no doubt about that.

My old source (who passed on a couple years back).. told me personally the Hatch was suppossed to have that territory if it became free (problem is Black Sam died and DiFronzo did not want to bother with it) This being After the LaPietra’s and Monteleone died off.

It was taken as “wide open” territory. And I think I get what your talking about with “Angelo L’s surly disposition.. fortres of a home” lol

HF, can you as an educated and well  rounded person tell me if Joe Fosco, has legal creditials that the States Attny Proof? If he has family members of one or more his stories go to the States Attourney’s Office, can it be possible that the States Atty. can force Joe to reveal his source? Is Joe Fosco a true reporter such as one on the Tribune? I once worked at Wed’s Journal, Sales only, I should have thought to call them and ask them, in what case are there legalities? You are very smart! So, can you tell me this answer? I also worked for the Journal and Topics. sales only. I once ate dinner in the Oak Park home of the owner of the Wednesday Journal.  Tod Wessel of the Journal and Topics is a real good friend of mine, he is real sweet! I see him and his wife all over the place! I wonder what the law is? Huh, What if it is proven that Joe Fosco is not a real reporter? Can the Channel 7 news people be able to look up his true credentials for me? Do you know I met Ron Saunders in person at Arlington Hts. Race track? As for  the Suburban Life, well, I worked there, sales of course. Gee, I wonder? I won a “Sharpie” award for sales person of the month at the Elmhurst Press! Gee, there has got to be someone out there that can help me look up how to find out the proper creditials of Joe Fosco, an if the States Atty. has something to work on?  If I had it my way, I would like the name of Joe Fosco’s source on a silver platter! Huh?

LEGAL NOTICE

ATTENTION – Kathy Peric, aka, Special Quest Explorer, of Chicago, Illinois (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001638256035):

Please be warned that I, Joseph Fosco, publisher of American News Post, hereby notice you that your electronic messages submitted to our message threads are now forbidden. Please cease and desist in submitting additional electronic messages to the threads of American News Post. If you fail to obey our cease and desist demand, I will personally file a police report on your harassing behavior and take every legal step necessary to successfully lodge criminal charges against you under Illinois Code – Chapter 720 Criminal Offenses 720 ILCS 135/Harassing and Obscene Communications Act.

This is my final notice prior to taking legal action.

Respectfully submitted,
/s/ Joseph Fosco

LEGAL NOTICE

ATTENTION – Kathy Peric, aka, Special Quest Explorer, of Chicago, Illinois (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001638256035):

Please be warned that I, Joseph Fosco, publisher of American News Post, hereby notice you that your electronic messages submitted to our message threads are now forbidden. Please cease and desist in submitting additional electronic messages to the threads of American News Post. If you fail to obey our cease and desist demand, I will personally file a police report on your harassing behavior and take every legal step necessary to successfully lodge criminal charges against you under Illinois Code – Chapter 720 Criminal Offenses 720 ILCS 135/Harassing and Obscene Communications Act.

This is my final notice prior to taking legal action.

Respectfully submitted,
/s/ Joseph Fosco

LEGAL NOTICE

ATTENTION – Kathy Peric, aka, Special Quest Explorer, of Chicago, Illinois (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001638256035):

Please be warned that I, Joseph Fosco, publisher of American News Post, hereby notice you that your electronic messages submitted to our message threads are now forbidden. Please cease and desist in submitting additional electronic messages to the threads of American News Post. If you fail to obey our cease and desist demand, I will personally file a police report on your harassing behavior and take every legal step necessary to successfully lodge criminal charges against you under Illinois Code – Chapter 720 Criminal Offenses 720 ILCS 135/Harassing and Obscene Communications Act.

This is my final notice prior to taking legal action.

Respectfully submitted,
/s/ Joseph Fosco

I am working on addressing your wishes.

Dear Readers:

Could I please rely on some of you to help me put together a
list of all the suspected usernames established by Kathy Peric (aka, SQE)? It would help
in my effort to block her. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Joe Fosco

ANP is proof that I am a real reporter. I investigate and report.

LEGAL NOTICE

ATTENTION – Kathy Peric, aka, Special Quest Explorer, of Chicago and/or Des Plaines, Illinois (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001638256035): 

Please be warned that I, Joseph Fosco, publisher of American News Post, hereby notice you that your electronic messages submitted to our message threads are now forbidden. Please cease and desist in submitting additional electronic messages to the threads of American News Post. If you fail to obey our cease and desist demand, I will personally file a police report on your harassing behavior and take every legal step necessary to successfully lodge criminal charges against you under Illinois Code – Chapter 720 Criminal Offenses 720 ILCS 135/Harassing and Obscene Communications Act.

This is my final notice prior to taking legal action.

Respectfully submitted,
/s/ Joseph Fosco

Thank You!

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I have personally combed through the comment threads of the
last 30-days and deleted every comment suspected of being Kathy Peric (SQE). I
decided not to go further back in time because there are just under 20-thousand
comments in the system. Please be advised that I have put a program in place to
make sure that Kathy Peric or anyone else would be stopped immediately if such
abuse occurs in the future.

I apologize to everyone offended by this inappropriateness.
Please understand that my initial reaction was to simply be passive-aggressive
as a way to avoid a confirmation, but my efforts were a miserable failure and,
again, I am sorry.

I would like to take this time to thank my dedicated commenters
for the hard work you have invested ion these comment threads. Without you, ANP
would not be nearly as successful.

Sincerely yours,

Joseph Fosco

Thanks for being pro-active Joe.

Joe,   Thank you for taking charge.  After looking at her picture on Facebook, I would say that the alias ‘ Macho ‘ fit her the best.  Horsey, come back on the threads.  It’s okay, don’t worry about it. How can a stupid Psycho file a lawsuit against someone she doesn’t know concerning comments that she wrote herself?  Think about it. That would be like me robbing a bank and then trying to sue a person I don’t know who saw me leaving the Bank with the money.

Hilarious!

My pleasure.

Comet,  Auippa & cerone became the #1 & the #2 AFTER Moe was long gone. It was based upon the individual merits of Auippa & Cerone and by the undisputed strength of the Cicero & Elmwood Park Crews. The Taylor St. Crew diminished greatly because of the natural deaths of many of the men. The remainder became the 26th st. Crew. The only guy really who originally was connected to the Taylor St. Crew that actually became the boss of Grand Ave. was Joey Lombardo who was born and raised there.

Guys…

I’m back, sooner than expected. Man, was that like an episode of the f*cking Twilight Zone, or what? 
Did anyone else do a Google search on you-know-who? If you do, be sure to proceed with caution. There’s a bottomless pit of insanity out there that I accidentally stumbled upon. Maybe someday after this whole thing blows over, I’ll tell you guys about it. (Maybe I’ll save it for Halloween–seems like it would be the most appropriate time for such a tale.)I took down the other site, but within a few days I’ll put up another one to host the charts, but I’ll be sure to disable the comments before it goes public, lol. ANP is the place to discuss such things anyway.The Don, I’m not worried about getting sued because an anonymous person can’t sue for damages, since no reputation is at stake. I’d imagine the defendant would end up with the ball in his court, anyway, in the form of a counter suit for frivolous litigation. Besides, in this case, it was all nonsense obviously intended to be a joke, and all said offensive items were removed before Joe posted his legal notice exposing her, anyway. I’m not sure who posted the messages, but I removed the offensive language immediately and then closed down the comments section entirely. I am positive that someone else–some very talented internet prankster–posted them. They were funny, and obviously not real.Joe, thanks for all your hard work. It seems like it was a real “trial by fire” for you and the ANP crew. Is it safe for me to assume that you are not in cahoots with anyone to sue me for light-hearted thread shenanigans?

Cheers, pal.

Horsey,  One question. Did Nutso post those offensive comments or was it someone impersonating her?   When I asked her she said ‘ YES ‘.  Either way, I’m glad she’s gone and I hope she’s real successful with her new Detective Agency.  Now, would you like me to start giving you names for Chart #2.?

Black Angelo,  if I had been in Vietnam, I would have wanted you in the foxhole with me. You, my Friend, are a real Sicilian.

The Don, fire away with the names for chart #2, but keep in mind that I won’t be able to tidy it all up until tomorrow. 

btw, Is “Chicago Outfit, c. 1976″ a good title, or is there a better date range?As for those comments, I am almost certain she was not really the one who submitted them mainly because they were obviously intended to be funny. Someone with a sense of humor posted them. I thought they were funny and didn’t take them seriously.

I am wondering why the real power of the Alex family, Sam,
is not an issue on this chart. As a side note, Gus, was the founder of Zenith
Vending.

Another side note, I heard a rumor that the current Cicero
Town President, Larry Dominick, is related to Gus Alex on his mothers side. Does
anyone know anything about this? 

Joe, we didn’t decide to insert non-Italians today. Keep an eye out for an updated chart including them tomorrow. I asked you before when Charlie Nicosia came into the picture, but you never got back to me.

We will add Sam. Was he active between 1957 through 1966? I know he committed suicide eventually.

Sorry, I meant, “we didn’t decide to insert non-Italians UNTIL today”

Yes, he was active then, but died sometime in the med to late 60s.

I fully intended to respond to the Nicosia question. I am sorry that I was delayed. Charlie was around for a very long time. I would imagine he came in the picture as early as the late 1930s. I am basing this on my memories of various stories that I heard from First Ward guys.

Joe, check your email really quick for a brief question requiring a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ and also for an interesting piece of info. 

Attention readers:

If Kathy Peric falsely sues any of you, please know that I
will see to it that one of my friends who practices law, will represent you for
$1.00; and I will gladly lend you the buck. Furthermore, I believe that Peric
lives in a trailer park in Des Plaines,
which tells me that she probably will not be a serious threat to us.

If she raises enough hell with the authorities, I would not
be surprised if she would be committed to the Illinois Department of Mental
Health.

Joe, how about Dominic Senese? When was he active?

Dom was active by the late 40s until he died. I not sure if he was made, but he could have been. he was around some heavy guys.

 Joe,  I just got word that Kathy Peric has been hired to be the head Detective in the Chicago Police Dept. Her job will be to investigate all unsolved murders in Chicago based upon her fine performance as lead Detective for ANP. 

LOL – She is doing Roemer proud!

Grazie Don,  Semper Fi

Horse, Of course I win, but you should not give up so easily my friend.

Joe, your right Gus Alex was the founder. By the late 1980s – 90s Marco Damico owned it (he was partnered with Sal Bastone in this venture). Their was another company under it called Apex Vending. Sal Bastone controlled Zenith from the 1970s until his prisonment. Marco I believe still owns Zenith and Apex behind the scenes. One of Carmine Bastones son’s Jamie & Joey I believe have a piece of Zenith though.

Horsey,  Here is the Entire Chart#2.   Advisors :  Tony Accardo & Al Tornabene.  Political Specialists:  Romie Nappi & Pat Marcy.  Top Cicero People:  Joey Auippa, Sam Carlisi & Joe Ferriola.  Top Elmwood Park People:  Jack Cerone, Willie Messino & John DiFronzo. Made men: In the Big Box make 4 rows of 4 men to a row. Starting on the left: Row 1: Rocky Infelice,  Dominic Cortina,  Donald Angelini,  Joe Amato Row 2 : Sal Bastone,  Carmen Bastone,  Harry Aleman,  Bucky Ortenzi. Row 3:  Dominic Blasi,  Chuckie English,  Joe Spadevecchio,  Lee Magnafichi.  Row 4:  Joe Andriacchi,  Pete DiFronzo,  Mike Cataldo,  Joe Lombardi.  Top Grand Ave. People :  Joe Lombardo & Mooch Eboli.  Made men :  Vincent Cozzo,  Tony Spilotro,  James D’ Antonio,  Dominic Senese.  Top North Side /Rush St. People:  Dominc DiBella & Vince Solano.  Made Men:  Joey DiVarco,  Joe Arnold,  Mike Glitta,  Jaspar Campise.  Top 26th Street People:  Turk Torello & Angelo LaPietra.  Made men:  James LaPietra,  John Monteleone,  Frank Caruso, Butch Petrocelli.  Top Chicago Heights People :  Al Pillotto & Al Tocco.  Made men:  Dominic Palermo,  Frank Zizzo,  Nick Guzzino,  Jerry Scalise.  50 men total.  We can start with this and talk about any minor tweeks.  Marco D’Amico will be on the next chart which begins in 1986. This Chart is basically reflective of 1974 through 1985.  This is not a complete chart of all active made men.  This chart represents about 8o % of all active made men on the street at any given time. The number of made men and soldiers had already decreased about 15 to 20 % from the Taylor Street Years.  This is an accurate display of the Power structure of the Oufit based upon Street Crew Dynamics and personnel. We can tweek a couple of the names if necessary. Men who were made towards the end of this time period will be on the next chart. Examples: Jimmy Marcello, Solly D., Lou Marino , Frank Calabrese etc.

Joe & Horsey,  I forgot Sam Alex.  Horsey, on the Taylor St. Chart in the Non-Italian Crew, Make Murray Humpheys, Capo. Make Gus Alex, Underboss. Then list the other 6 names: Ralph Pierce, Les Kruse, Sam Alex, Hy Larner, Lenny Patrick & Eddie Vogel. This way we keep the pattern the same with a Capo, underboss, & men  like the Outfit Street Crews. Besides, I believe Humphreys was their leader and after Humphreys died, Gus Alex became the leader of the Non-Italian Group. I remember my relative talking about Humphreys and he said he was the leader of a crew just like the other Bosses. He said these guys were important and they weren’t made because of a technicality. They didn’t have all the ‘ rights ‘ of made guys, but they were an important auxillary arm of the Outfit. Ralph Pierce in particular really admired Joe Gagliano. There was a little bit of predjudice that I noticed against the Greek gangster Brothers Gus and Sam. The Italians got along real well with the Jewish Outfit Guys. 

Black Angelo & Horsey,  I looked at the postings down below about Shorty LaMantia.  If push comes to shove,  I would say Shorty LaMantia was a made guy in the 26th St. Crew.  I probably would put him on the next chart if there is room.  He was an important guy in the 26th St. organization.  I read Frank Senior’s quote about Shorty introducing him and in my opinion, I think Frank Senior was upset with Shorty because he didn’t want the New York Guys to know that he and Shorty were made guys.  The guy who wrote the article wouldn’t have any clue about that kind of mindset.  You could take the conversation either way.  However, Frank Senior wasn’t fond of Shorty so I think he was trying to be a little condescending talking about him.  Shorty was full Italian, had worked as a soldier for many years, was ACTING IN THE ROLE of a made guy by his STATURE within the Crew.  He was definitely a supervisor over other guys that I would call soldiers,  he was present for the Crew’s private meetings in the 26th St. Club House & was direct with the Boss, Jimmy La Pietra.  In my opinion he probably was made after Angelo went away.  As far as murder is concerned,  he wasn’t the type like Frank Calabrese or Nick Calabrese. However, there are plenty of made men available for murder.  Also, I’m going to bring up something we have never discussed.  In the threads recently, there has been discussion about murder and made guys. Let me give you an example that everyone can think about.  If a guy has been taken into a crew as a full time soldier and has served in that capacity for many years, and is full Italian, and is well liked, and has leadership abilities to earn for the Crew, and is considered a loyal trustworthy man, and a postion opens up where a soldier is needed to step up and take someone’s place or there is a decision made to expand the activity of the Street crew,  this particular man can be involved in ONLY THE SETUP OF SOMEONE BEING KNOCKED DOWN and still be considered to have participated in the murder. He doesn’t have to pull the trigger. On that basis, guys who are basically not murders can qualify. How do you think Donald Angelini qualified?  I heard this from the horse’s mouth. Your thoughts?

All–interesting read on NY/Chicago connections at least a bit more recent.  If Solly D was in attendance then, this probably speaks to his importance in the late 80s:  http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-03-22/news/8903280930_1_chicago-mob-chicago-organized-crime-family-joseph-ferriola

The Don, I agree 100 % with you. And that is the problem the guy that writes for the Sun Times would have no idea about that kind of mindset. And his bosses at the Sun Times will probably let him publish anything he writes. What da fuck do they know !! (this goes for the same people at the Trib also)

Shorty was most definately Made. Shorty introduced Frank to some guys connected to the Gambino Family and the Colombo Family Boss John Franzese. Frank really didn’t trust some of the New York guys (or outsiders period), on top of that he did not like Shorty (i’ll get to the reason why here in a second). Ironic because Frank was walking around the prison yard with his son telling him about murders and ceremonies. But on the other hand was ticked off Shorty was telling New Yorkers they where both Made.

Here’s how I was told Don… Angelo LaPietra’s main man (besides his brother Jimmy) was Frank C. He gave the green light for Frank to put any amount of money on the streets. He involved Frank in murders and let him do what he needed to do to make money for the crew and let him run a franchise.

When Angelo went away his brother Jimmy took over. Jimmy changed alot of things. Jimmy’s main man was Shorty. Frank was to good of an earner to be shelved by Jimmy. He also let him keep his franchise. However Frank was left out in the cold with alot of 26th street affairs (like big meetings and Captians Meetings). Jimmy i’m told did not like Frank but did like Nick (as in Nick Calabrese). 

However, Jimmy L did allow Frank to run his Juice Loan business without any interference. Frank was kind of like a “satellite” 26th street member. He ran his operations out of River Grove (lived in Oak Brook, and not in the old neighborhood).

Ronnie Jarrett was mainly Franks eyes and ears in the old neighborhood. Shorty was always a neighborhood guy. Very respected in the hood. Shorty was also in Jimmy Lapietra and Apes inner cirlce. Frank C resented that. Even though Shorty was Made. Behind bars Frank would try to make him seem beneath him.. when in reality Shorty was more powerful than Frank. Trust me.

 I suspected there was a little jealousy involved. Also, sometimes these macho man Outfit guys get jealous if another Guy, who’s not a skilled muderer like them, becomes more of the Boss’s man. They then start to talk a little bit behind the guy’s back , here and there,  to whoever will listen and then they question how tough he is by asking ‘ Who has that guy killed ‘ ? There are different types of made men within the Outfit who deserve to be respected for their loyalty and individual talents. Yes, a guy like Frank Calabrese should be feared and respected, but I PERSONALLY respect and like the Donald Angelini, Shorty La Mantia type of guys more than the other even though they are all valuable in different ways. And like I stated earlier, if a guy sets up a meeting to get another guy out in the open to be knocked down, then he qualifies as having participated in the murder. He is a co-conspirator.

Black,
you know your stuff!

Logic, You are correct.  Solly D. was important in the late 1980′s.  I read the article and all the guys mentioned belonged to the  Cicero Crew.  However, as usual, the writer is mixed up.  Joe Ferriola was NEVER the Top Boss of the Outfit.  He was the Capo within the Extended Cicero Crew. When he died, Rocky Infelice took his place. CARLISI became the Top Boss in 1986.  

The Don, Spot on again. Jealousy and Envy (I might add) was definately involved. Frank C was still a strong MadeGuy though. And very spot on with the 2nd to last sentence. Being an assessory after the fact, or setting a guy up or ordering a murder qualifies you in having participated in the murder.

And Donald Angelini was most valuable to the Outfit because of his earning capabilities. He also had vast connections in different sets of society that other Outfit guys couldn’t present themselves to. Some guys are valuable (and Made) in the Outfit because they have a badge, businessman, or are Politicians.

Funny story Don but Marco Damico was suppossed to be a cop (either with the Chicago force or Cicero Dept.). This was around 1957/58. His cousin who was a politician (also with the name Marco Damico) was going to get him the job. Marco got busted for gambling around that time frame and the cop thing didnt happen. And as they say the rest is history…. probably best for some citizens he did not get a badge and a pistol lol.

The revised Taylor St. chart and the 1976 chart will be up by tomorrow night. (Sorry..I left my flash drive  at work.)

The Don, I had a little mishap with my flashdrive. The charts will be up tomorrow night.

I can’t believe there hasn’t been any comments about the Trib article (Kass) about Rudy Fratto today. Fratto is facing 20-years and a 250k fine. Joe, what do you think will happen?

I read Kass’ article on Rudy five minutes ago after i saw that you mentioned it. I was unaware of it until now. Thank you. I think it is the worst article that Kass ever wrote. I think both men will be found guilty of the charges. I do not recall what Billy D is facing, but Fratto will likely get 4-7 years.

Horsey,  Can you title chart #2 1974-1985. The next chart will be 1986-1993 most probably. Will both chart be back on mobsharts like before. I thought it looked real good. Do you have any comments about the layout of Chart#2 or the names and explanations that I posted last night?

The fact that the prosecutor is bending over backwards to ease some pain for the defendants suggests a great deal in my opinion.

Joe,  I also just read the article.  Kass thinks he’s a comedian,  guess what, He’s Not.  Well at least he didn’t keep calling Fratto a Mob Boss. He refered to him as a Mob Enforcer. Why can’t these stupid assholes who write these articles just report the facts and say alleged Outfit Member Rudy Fratto goes on trial etc.  I read another article where the dumb uninformed jerk writer kept calling Fratto a reputed Mob Boss.  These guys think that every single guy who has ever been even associated with the Outfit is a Mob Boss.  The minute a guy is indicted for something, he automatically becomes a Boss, according to the News Media. The next time anyone asks if a guy is a made guy in the Outfit. The answer will be ‘ Yes,  but only if he’s been indicted and then he becomes a Boss. ‘  That is the new qualification from now forward. The new chart will be changed so that all 50 guys will be listed as Bosses to make the News Media happy.

I agree.

I remember one night we were with those Cleveland f***s at St. Andrews Golf Course and one of them asked Michael when he was made. Michael said, “nine months before I was born.” LOL

Very interesting. By the way Joe, I haven’t thought about Fratto for awhile and I can’t remenber one minor point. Is Fratto direct with Johnny or is he under Andriacchi?

Horsey,  That’s no excuse. Your punishment will be that The Outfit is ordering you to go out on a date with Kathey Peric and shave off her mustache.

Don, Rudy isn’t “direct” with Johnny DiFronzo or “under” Joe Andriacchi. He’s been trying hard to squeeze into Marco’s inner circle. But at the end of the day Rudolph belongs to that cigar chomping and whisky guzzler of a wife Kim Fratto. She calls the damn shots. The Don i’m surprised you did not know this.

Wait a minute Black Angelo,  I know that Rudy’s Mommy got him made, and I know his wife calls the Shots, and I know he is obviously with Elmwood Park. The question  is : Is Rudy more with Johnny or Joey A.?Answer: Neither. He’s with Kim Fratto’s Crew. LOL

Joe, here’s the press release: http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2010/pr0312_01.pdf

Joe, btw, who were the Cleveland guys? Do you remember their names?

Careful, Don. You don’t wanna get sued, do you?

Lee sponsored Rudy into the Elmwood Park crew. Therefore, Rudy belongs to Johnny and Joey A. However, with his sponsor (Lee) gone, he has been tossed aside as if he were an old rocking chair by Johnny and Joey A. I remember right after one of Johnny’s brothers died, after the wake, Billy Daddono (the third) and I were having a cocktail at a Bloomingdale establishment (roughly 8-years ago) when Joey A briefly joined us. The first thing out of Joey’s mouth to Billy was, “Your Uncle is not coming is he?” We both answered, “F**k no.” Joey laughed and told us that Rudy is the reason he had to sneak out of the wake. Apparently, Rudy would not leave Joey alone that night, hovering over him as if Johnny Cash were in town. You see, wakes are a big deal to Rudy. Especially wakes where immediate family members of people like Johnny are involved. It gives Rudy the opportunity to bee seen with the Outfit VIP’s, which is usually the only time he can be seen with them. Rest assured that after the DiFronzo wake, Rudy’s public imagine in the Outfit community was recharged enough where he was likely in position to extort some poor fool who saw him there rubbing elbows with the big boys.
The incident that positioned Rudy to have the opportunity to warm up to Marco occurred roughly 5-years ago, when Rudy’s nephew, Billy Daddono III, physically assaulted in cold blood (by committing a sucker attack) on the senior citizen and heart transplant patients brother of the late BM, Ronnie Stella. After the brutal attack, Billy was arrested and charged with felonies. Quickly after the rumors swirled of the attack, Billy invented an excuse that the victim had verbally insulted the memory of Billy’s late grandfather (Potatoes) and hit on his wife Laurie, which are both false (why would anyone hit on his wife). However, Billy knows how to play his father like a piano, therefore, knows what his father will accept as a worthy excuse for a physical fight. So, once Billy smoothed over his deplorable actions with his father, he reached out to Uncle Rudy (as much as he hates his uncle, he will attempt to rely on him when in trouble, like a coward – I would not take help from someone I hated as much as Billy hates his uncle). Rudy jumped at the chance to help his nephew because he figured he could soak him for some money since Billy has a direct pipeline to his father’s million-dollar fortune (what a family, lol). However, to Rudy’s surprise (not mine), the heart-patient told him to f***-off. At that point, Michael Magnafichi went to Marco asking him to intercede on Billy’s behalf. Marco obliged and the case was dismissed. Nonetheless, Billy had to give the heart-patient 40-thousand dollars. From that point, Rudy looked at the entire matter as if both he and Marco worked together to help Billy, which inadvertently caused Rudy to be involved in a fresh and important experience with Marco.

As a side note: Billy’s wife is the mother of the smalltime thief and mental midget, John Rainone, ex-wife of onetime government informant, Mario Rainone, former mistress to Marco’s late driver, Vick Tarton – I will end the list here because I do not have much time this morning. In addition, I do not want to start a war of family verbal attacks because it would lead to an area that Billy Daddono would not be able to cope with and I do not want to cause such negative activity.

Dear H.F.,
Two major parts to a lawsuit have to be strong in order to succeed in court. The first is a cause of action. The second one is damages. If you do not have damages, you will not find a lawyer who will take you seriously. Damageless lawsuits are for millionaires, who are not concerned with receiving an award, but want to spend thousands on legal fees to harass their victims.
Peric does not fit the bill. She lives in a trailer park.
Lastly, and what damages could Peric prove? .

Joe, I was just kidding / being sarcastic. Come on, man.

Joe-Two questions for you:  

1.)  Were you aware of Alphonse Tournabene at all prior to coverage of Family Secrets in 2007 or his importance in the Outfit?  In all of your discussions with Messino, Magnafichi, Eboli and other well-known gangsters through the years, did his name ever come up?  2.)  Given Tournabene came out of nowhere and rarely had his name in CCC mob charts, FBI mob charts and in the newspapers, we can conclude he was a successful “sleeper.”  How many more Alphonse Tournabenes would estimate are operating here in Chicago that go completely nameless for so many years?  Why wouldn’t the Outfit resort to naming someone like Tournabene a boss over a more well-known figure like DiFronzo?  Is it possible Tournabene was more than an “adviser” and retired gangster in the early 2000s?  

I was aware of Al T prior to the Family Secrets case. However, he was not as important as the case would make him seem. As far as powerful sleepers of the Outfit in todays time, I would say there is not a significant number at all, not even a modest number.

Thanks Joe, I got the idea after the first paragraph. But, remember, Rudy is a Boss because of the publicity. Go ask the news media, the most reliable source of information ever about the Outfit. LOL

Dear bloggers,

First of all, I would like to apologize for my bad english and congratulate you for your threads, it is very interesting.

Well, if you agree, I would have a few questions for you about the Outfit :

1) In New York, Italian-American street gangs still exist (ex: RBK in Rosebank, Staten Island) and continue to be used by the five families as farm teams. Nevertheless, the demographical changes in the traditional Mob inner-city neighborhoods (ex: Bensonhurst, Brooklyn) since these last twenty years has changed the thing and reduce this phenomenon. Can the same thing be observed in Chicago ?

2) To continue about the demographical changes in the the traditional Mob inner-city neighborhoods, it can be observed in New York that the Mob is now more active in the suburbs that in its traditional hangouts. Can the same thing be observed in Chicago ?

3) Does the Outfit still conserve huge influence in the unions, politics and police forces ? What about its real strenght in the legal business ?

4) In respect to the traditional street rackets (gambling, loansharking, extortion), does the Outfit still conserve large influence in Chicago, and, more globaly, in the Midwest and the West Coast ?

5) What about the relation between the Outfit and the other organized-crime families of LCN nowadays ?

6) It had been said that only three street crews remained in the Outfit and that its membership has drastically dwingled these last twenty years, is it true ?

7) In respect to the Mob hits, in New York, it had been said that it had been a decision of the top guys to reduce their number, but that the five families still conserve big muscle (Carmine Esposito, a Genovese, had said about Gigante : “Vinny could have put a thousand shots in the street when he was the boss if he wanted”). Is it the same thing in Chicago ?

¡ Muchas gracias !

(Excuse me for my english :-S )

LOL

Al was known as an Outfit guy in the neighborhood for a long time, he was a trusted old timer, his role as an advisor was magnified to help Micky M, who is not the sharpest tool in the shed.  A lot of cash went threw his Pizza joint, which is in a convienient spot close to Cicero and 26th street/Chinatown. His Brother ran all the delivery trucks for the Sun Times.  Al T. was a crafty son of a bitch and a hilarious interview, real old school! LOL! 

Yes, the interview was pants pisser.

Don Quichotte,  Question #1:  The farm teams have been dramatically reduced from years ago.  In the past,  there were definite areas for farm teams in Chicago:  Taylor St., Grand Ave., Chicago Heights, Melrose Park etc. Question #2:  The Outfit is still active in the City and the Suburbs but they’re operating at about 1/3 to 1/2  Speed compared to the peak during the Taylor St. Reign from 1957 to 1966.  That is a generous estimate. This includes legitimate businesses funded in the past. Question #3:  The Outfit still has some definite power in Unions, Politics & Police Force.  Question #4:  The Outfit still has influence in the Midwest and West Coast, but again to a definite lesser degree.  Question #5: Same answer as 4.  Question #6: The Outfit has 4 Street Crews which would be comparable to a ‘Family’ in New York terminology.  In Chicago, the number of made guys was always by design much smaller than New York and much more selective. The made guys in Chicago would be equal to the ’ Captains ‘ in the New York Families.  The Soldiers in Chicago work for the Made Guys. Chicago has traditionally always been better organized than New York.  The Capos of the Street crews would be equal to Bosses in New York.  The Top Boss Of the Outfit has generally the Strongest Crew. the Bosses of the Street crews, at least in the pst, were a Commission with a definite pecking order of power, unlike New York.  Chicago was always unified as one powerful force.  Question#7: Yes, same thing. The Outfit purposely shys away from murder. In the past, the Outfit had stronger political connections and more control over the city, so they could commit murder with more immunity. Also, DNA makes it a lot more risky.

Taylor Street: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jk1MpkNNstLKRZZgujzAIgh_jn8bRC3y99hI_rOpTjQ/edit?hl=en_US

Chart #2: 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MLJ4XCB0j9J6hqC-kNkHxaNaI725cPQqXHn3UD3a2X8/edit?hl=en_US

The Don, I’m probably not going to be on the threads too much this evening, but I wanted to mention that Nick C. testified that Dominic Palermo sponsored Al Tocco to be made in 1983. This chart makes it look like Tocco was higher on the totem pole s than Palermo during this time, but I’d say that it’s definitely debatable.

Joe and Black Angelo, any input or comments?

Joe, do you think Nicosia should be inserted into this second chart? If so, would it be under Political Specialists?

You really should flip the Sam/Gus Alex thing around. Sam was the man. Perhaps leave Charlie out. Face it, there are numerous powerhouses not mentioned in the charts, therefore, why list Charlie? Charlie should definitely come in on the recent charts when his cousin Carlisi became boss. Charlie was basically a co-underboss with Johnny (under Sam).

Another great story, Joe.   Most interested readers probably knew about Blasi’s involvement, but not Torello and DiFronzo.  That’s news to us.  Thanks for posting it.

Appreciate the charts too.  Horsey and The Don put a lot of work into them and they are very informative.  I hope that maybe, just maybe, you guys will put out a pre-1957 chart, especially covering the 1932-1943 years.

Regarding Ralph Capone, it seems that after his brother went to prison he spent most of his time in Racine, Wisconsin.  He started the Cicero crew, but when Aiuppa took over it looks like Ralph went into semi-retirement.  Claude Maddox and Willie Heeney were two non-Italians who had important roles in Cicero until their deaths.

Keep up the great work.

The Don,
You have a wealth of Knowledge…Thanks for all your post and everything you guys have done with the charts!!!

*Posts*

Great work on the charts, grazie!

Joe, you’re correct. I’ll fix it this afternoon. Please don’t pull any punches with the charts. If you’d rather not make recommendations in the threads email the Don or I. What are some of the powerhouses that we forgot? These charts can be changed relatively easily.

Sam Alex = Johnny Difronzo.  Gus Alex = Pete Difronzo.  Correct or Incorrect? Joe.

Close, the only difference is that Gus was liked much more than Pete. In fact, Gus was on the split with Joe B, Joey O and Jack. Johnny was the one who cut Gus out right before his indictment.

Horsey,  I think that is very debatable. I personally believe Al Tocco was made before 1983.  He immediately succeeded Al Pillotto.  By 1983, Al Tocco was the Boss.  How could he get made in 1983 and then all of a sudden be the Boss?  I think Nick Calabrese’s testimony about everything is very good overall, but not perfect.  He’s no different than us, we’re really good but not perfect.

Joe,  I agree.  Horsey, make Sam Alex the underboss to Humphreys. Put Gussy under him. Gussy was definitely more well liked than Pete DiFronzo. The only thing I ever noticed was a little predjudice against him because he was Greek. Joe, Do you know what I’m talking about?

yes, and Jack hated him because of it, but Joe b loved him.

Joe, If we missed a powerhouse on Chart#2, please let me know your opinion.

Horsey,  Can you make Chart#2 the same size as Chart #1?  The names are much smaller and harder to read.  Make the boxes exactly like Chart #1.  Also, I purposely did not want to seperate Cicero from Elmwood Park with a box around each crew because some of the made guys listed were direct with Both Top Bosses. Example:  Chuckie English & Dominic Blasi. Let’s figure out how to convey that fact.  Also, put the Romie Nappi/Pat Marcy Box on the left next to Auippa. Leave Tornabene where he is but take Accardo out of that box and make a seperate one for him and put him on the opposite side next to his Crew, Elmwood Park/ Jack Cerone.  Also, in the Big Box,  make the Cicero Capo and Right Arm spread out like in Chart #1 the way we did it for Bucciere & Battaglia.  Do the same for Elmwood Park.  You’re going to see that as we go along, the Outfit slowly becomes less powerful and the talent of men becomes less potent. The Outfit’s peak was with One Dominent Crew, Taylor St.  That will never be equaled. 

Don Quichotte,  The Outfit does not have a strong relationship with the Sicilian Mafia or the Calabrian Mafia or the Camorra ( The Naples Mafia) in the same way as New York. Why?  Answer:  The Italian Mafia, mainly the Sicilian Mafia, is all about the Manufacturing and Distribution of Heroin. They don’t really care about anything else. They have sent the Zips over here, mainly in New York, to be on the receiving end of the Heroin for distribution purposes. Everyone who knows anything about the Mafia has to admit that NOONE  can beat the Sicilians when it comes to Secrecy, Organization and blood ties. I repeat, NOONE.  The Italian American Mafia guys in New York are  afraid of the Zips.  In the past, Chicago has always shyed away from direct ‘ hands on’ distribution of narcotics.  Tony Accardo was one of the most powerful Outfit Figures in Chicago, but Paul Ricca was the one who really was against direct ‘ hands on’  distribution of narcotics. Ricca & Sam Giancana were the two Top Bosses in Chicago from the West Side Taylor St. Crew,  not Accardo.  I don’t know which Mafia Group is the most powerful today in the United States.  None of them are what they used to be.  However, I would say that the entire Chicago Outfit ( which includes Elmwood Park, Cicero, Grand Ave. & 26th St.)  is more powerful than the singular  Genovese Family. Most definitely.

Well stated Don as usual. The Outfit as a whole is still the most powerful (numerous reasons why). Anyhow, I recall a Frankie Rappa who was a Sicilian and a Zip to boot. He dealt major herion here in Chicago around the mid 1960s. He was close with Marco Damico.

I believe Teets or Obrien kicked him out of Chicago around the late 60s but he returned back to Chicago (the Elmwood Park area to be exact) in or around the mid 1980s. In the 80s he dealt with both of the “nasty” herion and cocaine. He belonged to Marco. Their was a lil Sicilian Crew (all Zips) that was under Marco in the 1980s.

The Don,

The PDF conversion an the revised version of chart #2 looks like dogshit, so I am going to have to try something else and repost either tonight or tomorrow. As for chart #3, I want to wait until the next article comes out.

Joe, the Don, and Black Angelo:

While you’re waiting for the link for the revised chart to be posted, check out this other flow chart that I made, which accurately illustrates the FBI’s attitude toward the Accardo-faction of Chicago Outfit from the time Hoover established the Top Hoodlum Program (1957) up until the retirement of Bill Roemer in the 1980′s.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1wfD0QvCt67D1_ihvkA3adZx8A5OjHzG8csgGbm384P0/edit?hl=en_US

Thoughts?

LOL !!! All we are missing is Chuck Woolery and we have a fuckin Love Connection !! LOL HF.. You must have some time on this Friday.

I think I just Pee’d in my pants!!!!!

The real question is does Rudy know that he is not with anybody? The last couple of times I saw him, he was dressed like a half assed Harley guy. He had on Levi’s and a leather vest lmfao!!!

Rudy is searching for a fashion identity, which is why he is sporting facial hair these days. yes, he knows that he is a gangster without a gang, which is why he is attempting to suck up to Marco. Rudy figures that his position as a made guy would compliment Marco’s position as a moneymaker. However, Marco is smart enough to know that the status of being made is unimportant.

All the funny stuff notwithstanding, Rudy must be a rough guy if he was with Lee. I imagine Michael M. is capable of being a rough guy to, considering his pedigree. 

Rudy’s mom was rough. She was Lee and Joey A’s pal. Rudy impressed Lee and joey A with his ability to wire various items, as he was an electrician. He wired some car bombs, which made Lee happy. Rudy is not physically tough.

Is Michael M. a rough guy?

ChiDago, Rudy’s only real connection to Marco was through Marco’s brother Guy. Guy was married to Rudy’s 1st cousin. Rudy thinks he is related to Marco (directly because of his cousins marriage to Guy lol).

And Rudy should of should stayed in the IBEW locals and been a dedicated electricain. Just like Michael Magnafichi should of tried to become a professional golfer and stayed out of the Life.

Neither Mike Magnafichi or Rudy should have became gangsters. It might be in their pedigree the gangster lineage. But its not in their DNA to be a tough S.O.B. or savage person. Just because your daddy was a gangster does not mean you have it cut out to be a gangster. Not in a million years.

Dear Black,
I agree with everything you said. If Rudy were an electrician, he would be living the same modest lifestyle, except, he would not be on his way to prison for a second time. Last time he was sentenced, he used his minor son and crippled wife as a shield in the courtroom. It was one of the most cowardly things I had ever witnessed. I hate to think of what his next trick will be.
In addition to Michael’s great golfing talents that could have made him rich, Joey A would have gladly put him in the Rose Bud group as a high-paid executive. With Michael’s leading man looks and talent to golf in 60s, he could have used the Rose Bud to rub elbows with the movie stars that frequent their many locations and possibly stumbled on to something much bigger. Very sad what these two men decided to do instead.

PS:
Unfortunately, I had the displeasure of knowing both of Rudy’s daughters when I was growing up. The oldest one was an outspoken young woman. I remember her bragging that her father owned a retail building on Grand Avenue in Elmwood Park, near Harlem Avenue. Years later, I learned that Johnny was the true owner. In other words, I concluded that Rudy probably misinformed his young children, sadly trying to impress them. He probably drove past the building once with his kids in the car and said, “Yea, that’s ‘our’ building,” justifying it because he was ‘with’ Johnny (sort of). Rudy Fratto is a pathetic piece of trash who deserves to be going where he is heading.

Michael won many fights and lost several. He is not known as a bruiser as his late father was regarded. Michael would rather take a beating then back-down from someone. However, he could handle himself better than the average person could. I have seen Michael intimidate guys 605, 250 lbs.

Black Angelo,  Were a couple of the Zips located or connected to Rockford?  the only way Marco, being a prominent Outfit guy in the late 1980′s, could have gotten around the Elmwood Park edict, would have been through  some non direct ‘ FINANCING’ which is what I heard he did on occasion. Joe Gagliano did the same thing on occasion in the form of a ‘JUICE’ loan to a known distributor. Still risky, but Gags would technically not be in vioation of  the Elmwood Park Edict.  Dyno did the same thing.  I suspect that’s what Marco did on occasion so he didn’t violate the ‘ No Hands On’ edict. Your thoughts?

Don Quichotte,  Do you live in Italy? If you do, Que Parte?  The number of made guys in the Outfit is much smaller than the Genovese Family because they Shield their made men much better than New York. In Chicago, there  has only been ONE made man to betray the Organization.  That’s a very good record.  The Oufit total membership including full time soldiers who belong to the Street Crews would probably be around 150, which would be similar to the Genovese Family. In Chicago, a soldier who belongs to the Crew has to be in that capacity for many years before he can move up and become made. Much different than New York. The Outfit has more Associates and more singular Control over Chicago and still outside Chicago than the Genovese Family in their area.  But I do agree the Genovese Family has the most power in New York. The Bonnano Family has always had the most connection to the Zips. The Gambino Family has become much weaker and defragmented. The Calabrian Mafia and the Sicilian Mafia could probably teach the younger Italian American Mafia Guys a few things.

Horsey,  All kidding aside, I still wonder about Joe Batters &  Roemer on a professional level.  Roemer’s attack was always against Giancana and made men men from Taylor St.  It NEVER was against Accardo or Cerone.  When Accardo supposedly had his walk and talk conference with Roemer, it took place in Elmwood Park  on Accardo’s  turf with Accardo’s own personal men. Accardo didn’t like Mooney and that may have been his only way of attacking him and the Taylor St. Crew which was the most powerful ‘ Family’ ever in the United States history of the Mafia.  Giancana also rejected Cerone as his Partner in running the Ouitfit which means he rejected Accardo and Accardo couldn’t do a fucking thing about it. Ricca of course backed  Mooney which didn’t make Accardo happy either. Mooney was just too strong. Even Ricca knew that. Good thing Ricca was his mentor and belonged to the same Crew. Accardo & Cerone got pushed aside too a certain degree.  I would not have put it past Accardo to have made a secret deal with Roemer knowing how in love Roemer was with him. This would have guaranteed at least more safety for Accardo &  His Boy Cerone. I’m not saying that is what happened. I’m just wondering?  Anybody’s thoughts?    

Grazie.  Chitowndago, say hello to your Grandfather and Hungy Hill and tell him Thank you. I had the unusual advantage to observe things first hand and ask careful questions. I never asked questions about Murders. That would have been going way too far. Most of my questions were about how the Outfit was Organized and how it operated so successfully as a syndicated business. That always intrigued me.  Little by little, I learned how the Oufit was structured and how it was quite different from what was written in books and how it was quite different than New York. I came to understand the dynamics of the almighty Street Crew which was the foundation of the Structure. Once you understand the different Street Crews and who’s with who and how they all work together under the management of the Domint Crew, then it all starts to make sense and it all falls into place. In the future years from now when we are all dead and buried, when people look back into time about the American Mafia, the one group that will stand out as the prototype of success will be the Oufit. That will be the prototype studied 150 years from now in some classroom.

The Don, Some of the Zips was in Rockford. And lets just put it this way Don but their was alot of greedy bosses in the 80s that would pretty much let Marco do whatever he wanted to do (He was that good of an earner).

But Marco is pretty smart and he used a front (as he usually does) while financing. and your correct Joe Gags, Dyno did mess with narcotics (indirectly) as did Rocky I and Americo.. Tony Borse did as well. Their was others too. The money was just to good to “directly” stay away from.

Thank You for the reply Joe. Very Insightful to say the least. I agree of course with you assesment on what Michael and Rudy should of did with their lives.

And yes Feeble Rudy could of avoided prison.

LOL on the story about Rudy telling his kids he owned that retail joint on Grand (I think I know what building your talking about). And ol Dottie was the toughest Fratto of all. Maybe why Joey A and Lee had such admiration for her.

From the stories I have heard about Dottie, if she were born a man, the German would look like a pussycat.

She was most def not all their in the head. I met her a couple of 3 times. Any mother who would want their son to join a criminal and brutal organization has gotta be fucking nuts ! Guys liked her because she was a straight shooter. Too bad Rudy popped out the wombed as ugly as he is.

Black Angelo,  I think years ago, Rocky I was directly involved in narcotics before he was made, and he almost never overcame  that problem. Cardi, an Elmwood Park Soldier, not a made guy, got directly involved in narcotics and went to prison. When he got out in 1974, he got killed. I believe he might have been related to Willie, but I could be wrong. In 1974, Willie & Joey L. were still in College. Do you or Joe know if Cardi was related to Willlie?  His job was supposed to be juice collecting, not directly selling Narcotics. I think he got killed in some hot dog place his wife was running. Maybe somebody didn’t like their hot dogs? 

Chris Cardi was the son of Willie’s sister.

How Willie survived all those years is a testimant to his survival skills. That guy had an erratic outfit career. Some of the same reasons why alot of full 100% Italian guys got whacked in the 60s & 70s.. are some of the same reasons Willie “could of” been desposed of. Their was a time in the late 1950s and early 60s when it would of been unheard of a kid 13 years his junior (one Johnny DiFronzo) would of been his boss. But when you fuck up as much as Willie did … you loose your clout and power to people younger than you. But nonetheless the guy had good survival skills. And yes Fosco is right Cardi was Willie’s nephew. And Rocky I is one of the direct reasons in how all the African American gangs in Chicago got in he drug trade in the late 60s/early 70s (the epidemic still exist in 2011). Rock was the “in between/middle man” out of Columbia. He was moving “big weight” on the streets on the west and southsides of the city. Flooding communites with “bad bad stuff” !!

Two people kept Willie alive. Joe Gags and Johnny DiFronzo.

I should add that Joey O helped too. Willie was Joey O’s window into the life of Jack.

Black Angelo,  What is the relationship between Marco & Al Vena, the Boss of Grand Ave.?  You know who else thought Marco would do well when he got out in 2005? Joey L.     He specifically mentioned it to the Spizzirri Brothers, who I believe did some occasional work for Marco on special or extra assignments.  Mikey Cataldo &  Joey L. liked the Spizzirri Brothers.  There was another  ‘floater’  soldier  who wasn’t Italian but was used occasionally. He was Huge in size and he had a German last name. Do you know who I’m talking about? I think Marco might have used him on occasion for special collections. Cataldo & Joey L. used this guy occasionally.  

Joe &  Black Angelo,  Funny story about Willie.  My relative said that sometime during the 60′s,  Jack got so mad at Willie that he orderd him to stay in his house for one month and not go anywhere without Jack’s permission.  I thought that was hilarious, but when I stop and think about how loyal Willie was to the Oufit and how Jack actually caused some of Willie’s mishaps,  it’s kind of pathetic the way Willie was treated like a problem child by Jack.  Jack’s real problem child was his own son. Joe, You in particular know exactly what I’m talking about.

His name was Sean.. and he was a big ogor of a mother fucker. He was involved in just the muscle aspect of Outfit life. He wasn’t given much information about the Outfit other than go their and collect said monies for me and bring said monies back to this location.. take a cut and get the fuck outta here… The Spizzirri’s are getting up their in age.. but they used to freelance on collecting juice loans for Jimmy Marcello, Mickey C and Marco.

Marco i believe helps one of them out finacially. Albie Vena sort of keeps to him self. He only trust his relative through marriage Christy Spina. He’d do anything for Joe Andriacchi. He hangs out around Grand Ave all the time at a undisclosed Social Club. Him and Marco have some joint ventures I believe in a legitmate business. I believe Marco owns alot of buildings on Grand. I would have to double check and get back to you about him and Albie’s joint buisness arangements

Rumor has it Cerone took Esquire into a room one day had him stand and told him to hold a holy card… lit it on fire, droped some blood and told him you are Made now son. And told him you are my underboss. Esquire is Made. The only problem is Johnny DiFronzo does not give a fuck about who is Made and or recognize it. He’ll have you shelved in a heartbeat Made or Not.

I agree that most other Outfit guys throughout the city were unaware of the entire picture when stories would circulate about Willie. He was not a big f***-up as most thought. Think about it, if he were a big f***-up, he would have been knocked down. Jack wanted to kill him a couple of times, but for reasons that were driven by emotion, not business.

I never heard such a silly rumor. If you were not joking, I would suspect that Jack Esq. created the rumor. The fact is that Jack Esq. asked Johnny if he would ‘make’ him after his dad went to prison. Johnny told him no and asked him if he was ‘nuts’. Old man Cerone never wanted a life of crime for his son (like most good dads). If that were the case, the elder Cerone would have ‘made’ his son instead of sending him to law-school.

PS:
I agree that Johnny does not care who is made or not. he is not impressed by it.

 Black Angelo,  Esquire made. LOL.  However, you’re not far off where a situation could come up with a guy that is a recognized Outfit man, full Italian, did time for the Outfit , has been a loyal soldier, may have been involved  as a coconspirator in a murder and  is being given the right to run a franchise either by himself or in partnership with another made guy. I still maintain baised upon factual discussion about this subject, that a particular man who fits this desciption could be’ Made’  by the Top Boss and maybe one other made man as a witness. It doesn’t have to be a great big exaggerated party with a whole bunch of guys present, especially after  1989.  The word would spread, the other men from the other Street Crews would see this new man’s STATUS  and who he was with and it would be acknowledged and understood that he was a new made man.  Those big gatherings went out years ago because they were too risky.  This was the direct impression I was  given when that ’ MADE ‘  subject came up.  I want to be clear on my opinion about  Marco since we are doing the Charts. In my opinion based upon logic and discussions about the Made subject in the past,  I do not believe Marco was made before 1986 because of Cerone and I do not believe Auippa made him years ago into the Cicero Crew. However,   I do  believe Marco was  made ONE WAY OR ANOTER  by Johnny with one or possibly two witnesses  in the eary 1990′s.  If not,  then I maintain  He was made by Johnny ONE WAY OR ANOTHER  in 2005 WHEN HE GOT OUT of prison  with one or two witnessses.  If  it happened in 2005,  the guys in Cicero might not have even known because Johnny doesn’t talk to them very much at all.  Mike Magnafichi would not really know one way or the other, especially since he’s been shelved for about 10 years.  IF  he does know,  he refuses to talk about Marco because he likes him.  That’s the way I see it.     

Joe,  I think Black Angelo was joking abot Esquire. At least that’s the way I  took it. It was so ridiculous, it had to be a joke.  I did not know Cerone personally, but heard about him FOR YEARS. Based upon what I heard, I did not likr him but he did have ONE redeeming quality. He did love his son and would NEVER have wanted him in the Outfit. He was not stupid like John Gotti over in New York. I will give Cerone that one good point. One other good point was that he was very loyal to Accardo. However, that was based more on survival than love.  

Black Angelo,  Also. that time frame could be backed up to 1986, when Cerone went away and Johnny became the Boss of Elmwood Park and the Big UnderBoss of the entire Outfit. Definitely not before.

He must be joking.

The Don, on point as usual. We can argue all day who was the best boss the Outfit ever had (I like Obrien, but would probably go with Mooney… Ricca is on another level). We can argue who was the most brutal (probably Capone). Who is the most cunning boss and or secrective… I think its safe to say we could agree on Johnny DiFronzo. The times fit the man.

Having said that Johnny DiFronzo would be the one to protect his best assest one Marco Damico and also change how the “making” ceremony is done (more secretive). So lets not argue about when Marco was Made (1970 or 1990s or 2005) the point is Johnny doesnt trust anyone however he trust Marco.

Johnny could of been sitting at a mahogony desk with his President Rolex wearing watch of a brother Greedy P and Marco was present and he was then Made. Only 3 people know about it. Ironically those 3… John, Peter and Marco are all very very secretive. Marco is very cautious believe it or not. Tony Dote has alot of responsibility because of this fact. 

Marco has even been ticketed a couple of times since 2005 for making U-Turns (to see if the FEDS where following him) in his BMW/ and Lexus. As you have stated spot on before Don it does not take a friggin rocket scientist to tell by ones STRUCTURE, POWER or STATUS if that guy is a somebody. The rest speaks for itself.

Johnny DiFronzo would of never of told Cicero about Marco’s status for a whole host of reasons. Marco was smart by rejecting them and most importantly some how cleverly getting it on the streets he was even asked. That was smart to do that also for a whole host of reasons… put your thinking cap on and think about it.

It was a joke fellas. However behind every joke is some truth or a story to be told in a indirect way. I have alot of pictures Joe Fosco. I’m gonna send you one.. 2 of the people in it I think you’ll be able to identify. The others I wonder if you have seen them or ran into them in your Outfit social networking experiment you did in early part of last decade or in the late 1990s.

Black Angelo,  Amen, Fratello. This is basically what I’ve always said from the beginning and then we went off on a couple of tangents. The bottom line is that for me, it always goes back to what I have always stated over the last several months.  By the way,  I loved your description of Johnny sitting at a Mohagany desk, that was great  and probably happened just that frickin way!  I agree with your choices about the Top Bosses of the strongest Mafia Group ever in the United  States, The Outfit.  Mooney was the best Boss the Oufit ever had, and I would say Auippa second.  Both  were very exceptional.  Capone was the most brutal,  of course,  he had to be during that time period.  He was fighting to make the Outfit unified and at the same time fighting those fucking Irish gangsters.  Capone ‘s efforts made it easier for Nitti and then Ricca.  Without a doubt, the most secretive, cagey,  Top Boss was DiFronzo. Like him or hate him, that is the reality of  it.  Accardo was pretty cagey too, but he was never the Top Boss, which comes as a  shock to the ignorant News Media who really don’t know shit about how the Oufit really operates. 

 Black Angelo,  Yeh,  That’s the guy.  I heard he was a monster.  More fearsome than even  Action Jackson from years ago who was a soldier in the Taylor St. Group before he got into the meat hook hanging business. One of the injustices of Outfit life.  Action Jackson was not a stool pigeon, but was suspected and since he wasn’t obviously a made guy and had no made guy to strongly stand up for him,  he was falsey accused and hung for it, literally. It was rumored that Cerone was present, but I have my doubts. Why would the Taylor St. Crew need Cerone’s help?

I am looking forward to seeing the photos.

Horsey,  Where are you? Did you get a chance to make some of those corrections to Chart #2? If we make Chart #2 look like Chart #1 we’re happening. By the way, I knew you were joking before With your rebuttal about Nutso. Anyway, I hope you’re okay and your computer is working well. Take care.

 Joe,  Willie made all of his money in the last fifteen years of his life. I would say beginning around 1986, when Cerone went away. I always thought Willie should have kept or been allowed to keep at least 10% of the Two Million of Jack’s money he turned over to Esquire.  I know about the rule of the children of Bosses of the Crews, But this would have been a small token of appreciation, not an Arming.  I mean Willie was trusted by Jack to hold it for him for several years, plus that, I don’t think Jack took care of Willie very well when He and Joey L. were gone for 7 years.  Knowing how his Boss Johnny would have ruled, Willie should have made a couple Hundred Thousand disappear and turned over 1.8 million instead. That would have been good enough for Esquire. Jack was still unfair and cheap even after he died. Do you agree? Hey, for all we know, maybe it was MORE than Two Million and some of it did disappeared before it was given to Esquire. Johnny could have split the overage with Willie.  Johnny certainly knew all of Jack’s faults and cheapness.

No the Don, I don’t live in Italy right now ! Thank you for your reply, it’s a real pleasure to read your posts (and the posts of the others to !) !

I agree the Cerone family should have issued Willie a bonus. Willie visited jack in prison every month for 10-years and paid out of his own pocket. I believe that old man Cerone wanted Willie to get some money after his death, but Esq never delivered it. Willie debated on whether he should bring it to Johnny’s attention, but decided to forget about it. As to the 2-million, Willie would have gladly deprived Esq of all of it, but he checked in with his boss first. Boss/Johnny ordered him to turn it all over to Esquire. Michael Magnafichi, who was very familiar with the issue, shared a great opinion on the matter. Michael contends that Johnny would like to avoid problems with Esq for concern of the unknown. There is no telling what Esq knows about Johnny. Esq’s dad trusted his son with a great deal. If the U.S. Attorney’s office would receive a call from Esq about important information on Johnny, I think they would be glad to talk to him.

Tsz,  Having Poker Machines in an establishment is not illegal. The Machines are not illegal in themselves. What’s illegal is paying a WINNING customer which only happens occasionally and is hard to prove. Busboys don’t pay a winner. Most establishments only pay someone they know well and again, it doesn’t happen alot. In a particular establishment, there is generally one person, maybe two who are involved in overseeing the Poker machine and paying any winner when it occasionally happens. Bookmaking is also still big business for the Outfit along with Union Contracts.  Between Poker Machines, Bookmaking & Union Activity along with some Juice Loans, The Outfit still makes money. Do not make the mistake that the Outfit is dead. It is not dead at all, it’s just operating at about 1/3 speed compared to 30 years ago.   

Hello everybody,

Well, what are the main rackets of the Chicago Mob nowadays ? Like said Tsz, I suppose it must be involved in sophisticated scams which complete its traditional activities (loansharking, gambling, extortion, labor racketeering…). For example, these  last years, the New Jersey faction of the Lucchese Family had developed a gambling internet network which had taken in $2.2 billions worth of bets in 15 mounths and resulted in the bust of thirty-four suspects in May 2010.

Best regards

Actually, I learned that poker machines with countdown buttons on them could be considered illegal. This was something I learned in being involved in several conversations with Buddy Ciotti and his lawyer Alex Salerno.

Joe, I sent you two photos. 1st thing is first.. did you get them ? 2nd in the first pic the person in the back row 2nd from right is “honorable” (hint hint). The tallest person in the front who had that incident at a nightclub some years back (of the first pic) is standing by his mother (correct ?). The guy that used to be the shot caller in Elmwood Park all those years his friggin kid is in the front somewhere in that pic correct ? He has the real expensive blazer on correct ?

In the 2nd pic we all know who that lovely woman is. Do you know who the greedy bastard is that is on the right of that pic ? again with a real expensive looking sports coat on. Please dont say any names yet Joe. Just answer Yes or No. However in the group pic.. Is their any other people you can decipher or make out. Not as familiar with this group as I am with others. Thank You.

I responded to you several minutes ago via email.

If Johnny truly feared what Esq. might know about him, it would all be hearsay. It would be no different than you saying what you’ve said about Johnny on these threads. Esq. has no first hand knowlegde of Johnny’s crimes. The money was not turned over to Esq. because of fear of the unknown.  Johnny doesn’t fear anybody, especially Esq.  No,  the money was turned over for other reasons. I don’t agree with Michael’s opinion at all. 

Surly I do not mean that Johnny is frightened of Esquire. And, I understand the hearsay stuff, but we have no idea the possibilities. We do not know what Esq knows or does not know. He could know nothing, or he could know something. I would say that Esquire could bring a wealth of information to the Government if he turned (assuming he did not done so as of yet). Esq was hands on in many different union matters with Outfit guys, including Johnny, and other union leaders. Old man Cerone shielded his son from exposure with the ruthless murders, but saw no problem with his son engaging (allegedly) in the Cook County business/labor/political corruption, which was so widespread and rampant for many years; most of the players were unaware of any criminal element to it. Esquire knew 99% of all of his father’s contacts, both legal and illegal. His father did not introduce his son to these people to make his son a part of the Outfit, but he introduced his son to these people because he was proud of his son and enjoyed introducing him to his contacts. In other words, Esq could connect many dots that could very well lead to matters that DiFronzo would rather not have to deal with. Therefore, to keep Esq from flipping over a couple of hundred thousand dollars would be something that Johnny DiFronzo would surely like to prevent. After spelling it out in the way that I have, I agree more with Michael’s opinion now than before.
Actually, I take something back that I said in the paragraph above. I do know that Esq allegedly played a role in capturing intelligence for the Outfit in the matter that eventually caused the execution of a hit that took the life of prominent union affiliate (I will discuss details in the future). I believe that Difronzo was behind said assignation. I wish to be clear that I agree that Esq would not be an eyewitness to an actual murder, which would be the most serious threat to DiFronzo, but, again, Esq could connect a great deal of dots – dots that could give the government a lot to work with.
Another thought:
Could any of be sure that Esq was not in his fathers home on any given night that his dad belted out an ‘order’ at DiFronzo while shouting in one of his drunken rages?
Willie once told me that Michael Magnafichi could possibly be the most knowledgeable person in existence on the Outfit from Cerone’s days of power to recent years. Willie pointed out that Michael had Jack’s ear for many years, far greater than anyone else did, including Willie and Johnny. Furthermore, Willie explained to me that he and Johnny used to consult Michael in order to learn what was on Jack’s mind at times. Michael had nearly an identical relation with Joey A as he did with Jack. Again, Michael knows a great deal of information.

Nick Calabrese was used to help build a case against Joe Lombardo in the Seifert murder and Calabrese had absolutely nothing to do do with that murder. Calabrese claimed it was common knowledge that Lombardo was the culprit behind it. Isn’t that hearsay?

Dom,  Lombardo’s fingerprints were somehow tied to the Crime along with other evidence. He was not convicted because of Nick Calabrese. You’r correct, whatever Nick calabrese said about Lombardo killing Seifert was hearsay.

They used circumstancial evidence to convict Lombardo and Marcello (a tad physical on the Lombardo case, except I still dont believe no way in hell he was physically their at the crime scene)..

They could of indicted Johnny DiFronzo on the same premiss (hearsay of Nick Calabrese), but their case must of fell through. Or their is something Johnny knows about Nick that would of ruined the Feds WHOLE entire case. Besides the fact they have absolutely nothing to connect Johnny DiFronzo to the Spilotro murders (not even survaliance on that June 1986 day).

And I agree with you Don above. Johnny does not fear Esq. If Johnny was really really consirned about Esq. We would of been reading about Esq. disappearance or his obit in the paper. Nothing more, nothing less.

Using that logic, Johnny should order the $500,000 Dollars that was extorted from you returned,  so you won’t give details about Johnny’s crimes told to you by Willie. You are in the same postion as ESQ.  He had his father’s ear and confidence about who knows what, and you had Willie’s ear and confidence about who knows what. WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE? Willie even told you that Johnny was present at Giancana’s murder. I don’t see Johnny being indicted for it nor do I see Johnny ordering your $500,000 being returned to you for fear of what Willie  MIGHT HAVE told you.  No, Johnny ordered that money returned to Esq. for other reasons. I respectfully disagree with Michael. You, Joe Fosco, are in the same position as Esq. as far as Johnny is Concerned. Does Johnny fear what you might say about him resulting in the Feds putting the dots together or a possible indictment against him? Answer: No. What about Esq.? Same answer: No.

Jackie Cerone was leaning on a 25 to 26 year old kid giving him information on the Outfit ?? This Magnifichi had his ear at that age. What an idiot Cerone is if true. Jackie went away in 1986. How old was Mike Magnafichi then ?

The Don, I believe Marco’s status was never told to Magnafichi and certain people. Knowing what we know now of what Joe Fosco has just stated. DiFronzo would be a Moron himself to tell certain members of the Outfit Marco’s Made Status. Hell Frank Calabrese Sr all the way in the can knew about Magnafichi and his rambling mouth. He told Frank jr to stay clear of him. I believe Marco told him in Milan to tell Frank jr to stay clear of him.

Black Angelo, In 1984, Michael was 25 years old. Michael wants Joe Fosco and anyone else reading these threads to believe that he was Jack’s confidant on Outfit matters? I Don’t think so. Michael was in a position similar to me where he got to observe certain things and maybe slide in some questions. Michael couldn’t help the Feds convict anybody for jaywalking.  He is basically a nobody in the Outfit and has very little credibility because of many recent problems. I don’t mean to offend anybody, but that’s the reality of it. Anything else is WISHFUL THINKING. The guy that was Jack’s confidant, even though he wasn’t treated as well as he should have been treated, was Willie, not Mike Magnafichi, a 25 year old kid. Cerone had many faults and was not well liked by a lot of people, but he didn’t get to be the Boss Of the Elmwwod Park Crew, the Underboss of the entire Outfit, and survive long enough to kill Giancana by being stupid.

not even close, i know nothing compared to the lawyer. and the lawyer was involved in the union racket. do we know if the lawyers dad ordered johnny to murder anyone in front of the lawyer? probably not. however, the lawyer is considered more credible then me. He was a lawyer for over 40-years without one complaint in his file. I have the vasselli case that Giacchino shoehorned me into that will haunt me for the rest of my life. and, more importantly, as i said before, the lawyer was a major player in the union stuff. I was not.

yes. Jack took Michael under his wing when he was 17. I know this from Willie, not Michael. Everyone around jack knew this. Michael could do no wrong with Jack. michael was with jack more tan anyone. jacks guys loved it. the more time jack spent with michael, the more time the other guys did not have to spend time with him. michael (along with willie) visited jack in prison every month for 10-years. Willie and michael were the only two non-family members that could visit jack. Johnny and jack used both willie and michael to pass messages. again, i know this from willie.

if michael could have his way, american news post would not exist. michael visited cerone in prison once a month for 10-years. willie was very impressed with michael because he knew where he ranked with jack. many people were quick to slam michael because of his youth. many people disliked him for being as connected as he was at such a young age. rudy tops the list.

The reason i bring up poker machines is that the “2000 poker machines” throughout Chicago are often cited in newspaper articles as the Outfit’s *main* source of income, which, last report I heard, they guessed at $200 million per year. When I was thinking about it occurred to me that if it was happening on such a large scale it would be impossible for the mob to keep wraps on it. 

Do you know anyone who still places bets with a bookie? I don’t know anyone who’s done it since the late 90s.

I called Michael this evening and asked him for the
first time if he knew Joe Lombardi. Michael said, “Handsome Joe.” Apparently,
he knew Joe fairly well. Michael had nice things to say about him.

Tsz,  That estimate is on the high end which is always exaggerated by the stupid newspapers. They are taking 2,000 machines, which by the way are not all Outfit controlled machines, and multiplying each machine at $2,000 per week Gross. 2,000 machines x $2,000 dollars gross per week would be 4 million a week times 50 weeks would be $200 million. That’s where there coming up with their exaggerated number. The Oufit controls most of the machines but not all. The average gross is between $1,000 & $2,000 dollars per week.  50% of the Gross goes to the Bar owners and other establisments who are ‘ partnered ‘ with the Oufit. What I just told you is much closer to reality. Yes , there are many people who bet on the Fottball games , in particular, in Chicago. If you don’t know anybody who does, then good for you.  Sports book is still relatively large in Chicago. You just don’t know where to look.

Joe,  There were two things being debated. 1) The closeness of Michael to Cerone &           2)  Whether Johnny ordered Willie to pay the 2 million to Esquire because of  some fear or apphension that Esquire might know something very compromising about Johnny.  Concerning the first point, I  know Cerone took a special liking to Michael and Michael would visit Cerone in Jail and Michael got made into the Elmwood Park Crew etc.  It’s nice that Michael had nice things to say about Joey L., and yes, when Joey L.  was younger he was very handsome.  I’m really debating point #2, not point #1.  I do not believe for a second that Johnny ordered the money returned in full to Esquire out of any kind of fear or apprehension about Esquire.  It’s a free country and that’s my opinion and also the opinion of Black Angelo. IF Johnny really felt the way Michael has stated back in 1996 or 1997, Esquire wouldn’t have been alive to extort money from you.  Son of Jack or no Son of Jack, Lawyer or no Lawyer.  Case closed.

Since the Outfit no longer apparently uses violence, or at least not even close to the level they did in the past, how do they keep their monopoly on bookmaking? Harry Aleman was wasting people left and right to do just that in his prime. What’s to stop some kid with a cell phone from moving in? 

“Case closed,” reminds me of Archie Bunker, who would say, “case closed” right before he would commit domestic violence by giving the raspberries to his poor wife Edith.
Allow me to better clarify Michael Maganfichi’s viewpoint. As I have said, DiFronzo is not frightened of Esq. However; Esq could connect many dots. I believe that DiFronzo followed protocol by returning the 2-million to the Cerone family because it was the right thing to do and I believe that any slight idea he might have had about keeping the money for himself (or for Willie) was immediately dismissed over concern that Esq could cause trouble. DiFronzo would rather not create a situation that would cause him to kill Esq over a couple of million bucks that genuinely belonged to the Cerone family. This is an example of what makes DiFronzo a smart criminal and a true survivor. Case stands in recess. lol

It called being brainwashed. The Outfit continues to have an older generation brainwashed. It is an older generation, guys who are unable to turn on a computer to book legitimate bets with their credit cards, who still think Aiuppa is alive. The brainwashed victim inflicts his own intimidation on himself and pays the debt on time. The younger kids, who know better, tell the bookmakers to f*** off and nothing happens to them.
The young guys with a cell phone are taking action, but their young clients do not pay, so no one makes money.

‘Case Opened’  Archie Bunker never committed domestic violence. Actually, the only episode where there was a little bit of it was when Edith slapped Archie!  I think Johnny should have ordered a minority percentage of the money to be paid to Willie. That’s all. Why he didn’t do it was because in a strange way, he was fair about certain things and probably didn’t want to set a precident by removing some of the money. we don’t really know all his reasons. I will repeat, for all we know, some of that money might have disappeared before it was given to Esquire. Maybe it was originally more than 2 million.  Case adjourned. LOL

Domestic abuse covers verbal abuse as well as physical abuse. Trust me, Archie was a domestic abuser. lol
Esq could connect many dots. As far as the amount being higher than 2-million, impossible. Old man Cerone told Esq that Willie was holding 2-million, which is why Esq was aware that he had to contact Willie to call it in. Willie did not knock on Esq’s door with the money. Esq called Willie on it. Willie verified it once he checked in with Johnny.
Willie’s daughter Bridget actually was holding the cash in her safety deposit box, which is where she presently keeps Willie’s million bucks.

Tsz,  Why did you change your name from Ringwalk? Anyway, if you want to believe there is no more sports book going on in Chicago anymore by the Oufit, then that’s fine with me. Maybe the busboys in the bars are now taking the action on cell phones. I can tell you this, when a guy doesn’t pay, there might be a few threats and on occasion, if the Outfit guys are really careful, maybe a beating, but that’s about it. Generally they cut the guy off from any further gambling and spread the word across the City. That seems to be the Oufit’s strongest recourse.

tsz, the don, others…. The biggest bookmaker in Chicago and Florida is probably Tony Dote (under the supervision of Marco Damico). Alot of the guys that play with Dote’s Book have won before.. that is one smart thing (amongst alot of things) Marco has done right. These guys know they can win and WILL BE paid. Marco also has a monoply on bookmaking because that guy or agency you call in England or on a internet service Marco has a piece of it. Marco even has one of those I-PHONE’s (I couldnt operate one to save my life). This is actually less stressful for the old school bookie. It works both ways this new age gambling.

There is no need to whack bookmakers when their is offshore gambling or the internet and you have degenerate gamblers credit card numbers and can collect instantly on a loss. The pay out is no big deal either.

And one of my source says their are younger guys on the streets that still operate bookmaking the old traditional way. My source said their is some “half black half italian” fella who is a millionaire off of traditional bookmaking. He’s apparently always making rounds on Rush Street and is willing to get rough. He has even been seen with Marco apparently.

And this kid was taking large large bets through a front for Marty Gutilla who bets big (like 50 grand a week) and bets often. The mulatto kid maybe in his early 30s works for Tony Dote/Marco. He’s also into steroids (taking them and selling them). I heard he is a big freak of dude.

Anyhow If you ever want to see some old school bookmakers in large amounts go to Jilly’s on Rush on a Friday evening/night LOL.

tsz, the don, others…. The biggest bookmaker in Chicago and Florida is probably Tony Dote (under the supervision of Marco Damico). Alot of the guys that play with Dote’s Book have won before.. that is one smart thing (amongst alot of things) Marco has done right. These guys know they can win and WILL BE paid. Marco also has a monoply on bookmaking because that guy or agency you call in England or on a internet service Marco has a piece of it. Marco even has one of those I-PHONE’s (I couldnt operate one to save my life). This is actually less stressful for the old school bookie. It works both ways this new age gambling. There is no need to whack bookmakers when their is offshore gambling or the internet and you have degenerate gamblers credit card numbers and can collect instantly on a loss. The pay out is no big deal either. And one of my source says their are younger guys on the streets that still operate bookmaking the old traditional way. My source said their is some “half black half italian” fella who is a millionaire off of traditional bookmaking. He’s apparently always making rounds on Rush Street and is willing to get rough. He has even been seen with Marco apparently.And this kid was taking large large bets through a front for Marty Gutilla who bets big (like 50 grand a week) and bets often. The mulatto kid maybe in his early 30s works for Tony Dote/Marco. He’s also into steroids (taking them and selling them). I heard he is a big freak of dude.Anyhow If you ever want to see some old school bookmakers in large amounts go to Jilly’s on Rush on a Friday evening/night LOL.

Joe,  Let’s get serious. Why are you talking about ‘ All In the Family ? ’ It was a Comedy!  Calling Edith a dingbat was not domestic violence. I was actually a big fan of the show and thought it was hilarious.  Edith loved Archie and he loved her.  But, the bottom line is that is was a COMEDY. I think you are also mixing verbal abuse with domestic violence. They are two diffenet things. There might have been some verbal abuse in a comedic way by Archie, but there was no domestic violence. As far as Johnny ordering the money to be returned to Esquire, you win. Johnny ordered it because he didn’t want to have a problem with Esquire. Also, as far as you saying Marco was never made after Cerone went to jail, you win Marco was never made. You have to win every debate and make people like Black Angelo apologize over some minor difference.  I would be the first guy to say that Greg Tosto is an unfair idiot. However, saying he is a sexual offender because he said ‘ You’re a sexy little girl ‘ to his niece is going way too far. You carry some of your remarks way too far when you’re  trying to make a point.  Yet, you were willing to overlook SQE’S antics with a passive aggressive approach, what ever that means? wow!

I loved All in the Family never missed an episode in the 1970s. Archie was a ex World War 2 hero and a bigot (the real life character was the complete opposite of the latter). Can’t believe how “Pudgy Matassa” Sally Struthers has gotten. Used to love her when she was petite. I never saw Archie commit domestic violence or hit Edith. If arguing at your wife or telling her to have a warm plate be made after work. Well fuck we’re all screwed !! Ward Cleaver is even scrwed.

And I agree Don I dont think Greg Tosto is a sexual predator for saying that to his niece. And Marco is Made. Why would Willie Messino be told of such of event. It’s not like Marco needed Willie or Mike Magnafichi for anything. And Johnny DiFronzo understood this. His status to a Willie or a Mike is irrelevant. Marco never even went to Gene’s Deli. Completely avoided it for a decade.

Black,
I’ve heard about the situation…..Just not sure where your joking begins & ends (I’m not questioning Dote.)      

I think Johnny D. & Esq. have enough on each other to zip lips. “Money” is their #1 drive, not getting sent to college is # 2. I might have that order mixed up, either way, I don’t see anything happening.

I never accused Tosto of being a sexual offender. However, he is an offender. He accosted a child and I have it on video.
As i stated once, in addition to ignoring SQE, I barely read her comments. I single out what I do not want to read, unless its on my site where I have zero tolerance.
Look up domestic abuse (sorry that i am usually right):
http://mistyhorizon2003.hubpages.com/hub/A-Definition-of-Domestic-Abuse-Are-you-a-Victim

lol!
Black….The younger Bastones are working on the islands with the casino businesses. I’m sure you knew that. From what I’m hearing, it’s being run by them legit (that’s not hard to do there.)
Joey A. is living with his daughter and is in very terrible health, from what I hear.
I’m pretty sure my “Heights” chart is out the window. I showed my only reliable source this site, and after reading it for a few days, he decided not to help me at all.
The only thing I’ve come to realize is that you guys have really nailed it down on this site.
Again I’d like to commend all of the regulars on here. I try to check ANP myself or with my pops,  every day!

Who called Tosto a sexual predator? I simply called him “an offender.” He committed the offense of accosting a child. I have it on video.

Many say that Joey A is in bad shape, but someone i know saw him a couple of weeks ago in Elmwood Park, who claims that he did not look bad.

Joe,
I love your site. I can’t stand Tosticle. But you have to realize how far your stretching that clip you edited. I’m a proud parent myself. If some jag bag said that to my daughter in another context I would snap.
Your as hard-headed as I am. I know you’ll never take that video edit back….but I want to go on record fro saying, as much as I think Greg Tosto is a blow bag, asshole, long-winded, turd box of a wannabee, human being, I don not believe he is a child molestor, predator, abuser, etc.

I agree with you and I have always felt this way. However, if you familiarize yourself with the definition of the words ‘accosted’ and ‘offender’, you would understand that both apply to Tosto. He committed the offense of accosting a child. I have it on video.
Again, I never called him a ‘sex offender’ or a ‘sex predator’. Tosto invented being called those things and started lashing out at me falsely accusing me of defamation. Too bad you fell for it.
Shortly after I emphasized his deplorable behavior of accosting a child, he made up additional falsehoods suggesting that I hit on one of my friends minor daughters. That particular false accusation lodged against me is typical Tosto slander.
Every video posted is dated.

ChiDago, What do you mean joking ? What about Dote he’s been in the bookmaking business for over 30 years. And he’s got the one connection to be the biggest bookmaker in Chicago. Where he gets all the action and a piece from everybody else.

I trust the person that told me how bad of shape he was in health wise. I’ve never had Cancer, thank God, but I imagine there are days you feel better then others. If he makes it any length of time, passed the first of the year, I would be surprised.

The Bastones work for Marco. He gives them a percentage in alot of their gambling partnerships. Meaning Carmine’s two sons Jamie and Joey. The other Bastone Phil is real legit and the eldest Carmine jr. suffers from that Mike Magnafichi 5 finger discount syndrome. Stealing Cigars of all things when his brother Joey has a couple of Cigar shops. Strange.

Anyhow, Jamie and Joey still have contacts in Spain pertaining to Gambling. They have their own contacts (they grew up their) as well as their fathers old contacts. I believe they have their uncle’s contacts (meaning Angelo and Sal). Chitowndago, I also responded to you below about Tony Dote. Not sure if you read that.

I suppose in the game of chess you are both playing with each other, legally, you have to watch your “P’s & Q’s.

About Joey A he fought cancer in 2009-10 and has allegedly beat it. His son in law who is involved in pro sports signed him up at a health club. I dont understand how Andriacchi is still alive. All his brothers and sisters are dead. And his one bro a Jimmy was his name was a tough S.O.B. he died years ago.

If I was Joey A.. I would play the feeble sick card all the way to the real deathbed. Him and Greedy Pete are the same age, but Pete could probably run circles around Joey A right now. Pete’s in real good physical shape. Has a fuckin gym in his mansion.

About Joey A he fought cancer in 2009-10 and has allegedly beat it. His son in law who is involved in pro sports signed him up at a health club. I dont understand how Andriacchi is still alive. All his brothers and sisters are dead. And his one bro a Jimmy was his name was a tough S.O.B. he died years ago.

If I was Joey A.. I would play the feeble sick card all the way to the real deathbed. Him and Greedy Pete are the same age, but Pete could probably run circles around Joey A right now. Pete’s in real good physical shape. Has a fuckin gym in his mansion.

Black,
I just scrolled down to this post. I have never questioned the Dote’s. I never did and never will. They hail from a wonderful family lineage.
The I-Phone thing was where my joking came in

Black,
I just scrolled down to this post. I have never questioned the Dote’s. I never did and never will. They hail from a wonderful family lineage.
The I-Phone thing was where my joking came in

This site takes a while to post sometimes…I hope you can make sense of where I have answered your questions Black Ange.

This site takes a while to post sometimes…I hope you can make sense of where I have answered your questions Black Ange.

i approved you to have instant access. however, if you attempt to submit a message from a different IP address, your comment would have to be approved (and that depends on my availability).

The fucker does have an IPhone and puts on some glasses when he reads it to. One of his daughters or grandkids probably got him the fucking device for his birthday or Christmas. It’s not like he’s on some social networking site having a gay old time like Carl Dote. And the Dote’s come from good lineage. Their father wanted them all to be gangsters. But Tony was a “diamond in the rough” ! Carl his obese older brother for one is a Slob !! He does what he is told. If it wasnt for his 300lbs of girth .. I woul;d say he has blended in well to society. But I must say he has ran his 2 businesses/restaurants good for them “guys”.

Joe,  Look up the word accosted in the dictionary. It is to solicit for immoral purposes. Go ahead  Mr. Know It All and read it. TOSTO DID NO SUCH THING and you know it. Tosto is a jerk, but he did no such thing. You’re wrong.  Archie Bunker was a comedian, in his show there never was domestic violence, you’re wrong.  Johnny never ordered the money to be returned because he feared what Esquire might know about him. You’re wrong.   When you you say Marco was never made after Cerone went to jail, You’re wrong.  Should I continue?  If your family paid the Outfit $500,000 dollars in 1987, which was okayed by Romie Nappi, why would you begin paying the Outfit ANOTHER $500,000 beginning in 2001? If I were you Joe, I would start to be a little more humble with some of your comments.  Now, you’re going to be angry with me, but only a friend will tell you the truth. 

If you find it morally acceptable to call a toddler ‘sexy’, I am sorry that you feel that way.
Archie Bunker was not a comedian – Carroll O’Connor was the comedian. Are you suggesting that calling a spouse ‘dingbat’ is not abusive? Can we get your wife’s opinion here? lol
You have been throwing below the belt punches ever since I declared that Michael Magnafichi knows more about the Outfit then us. The comment threads tell it like it is. You have been down right nasty ever since I stood up for Michael and declared him more knowledgeable than all of us. Please calm down. It will be okay. I would say you are the one who should be humble.

Black Angelo,
I’m still laughing at the “ChiTown” Senses of humor we have, about the topics.
Tony D. had surgery for his weight and almost died from it (He didn’t go to a gym and work off his fatness.) Carl, I’m sure, in the past considered it (gas-bypass), but won’t now.  Carl is a #’s genius!!!

 Joe… I only submit from two different IP’s with my same name. Is just depends where I’m at.

i will make sure to approve the other next time it is held.

i will make sure to approve the other next time it is held.

I never said Tony Dote went to a gym. But the “diamond in a rough” comment was about how he’s not as big as a goof as his brother Carl.  It was not pertaining to weight. And Carl is smart, and real friggin greedy. He likes money and food in large quanaties. And while we are talking about gym’s and health/fitness and what not. Marco was concerned about Tony’s weight at one point and they belonged to a health fitness/Club and spa in Elmwood Park in the early to mid 1990s. Yeah and Shorty’s crazy son Rocco Lamantia had that by pass surgery also. Good for them if it makes them feel better lol. From what I hear prison did Tony some good (in keeping weight down).. as it is doing for Rocco.

I’m not angry with you. Maybe Michael does know more than all of us about the Oufit. I respectfully disagree with you about all of the things mentioned above. I don’t care about Tosto, I think he’s an idiot. I think you go too far with him because you hate him. I can see why he hates you even more now than before. However, he started the fight, so all is fair in love and war. The little girl is his niece and doesn’t understand anything he said to her. He’s just an idiot. What upset me the most is you attacking Archie Bunker as being a bad guy. You leave him alone. LOL  I agree he should not have called her a dingbat, but that’s as far as it goes. And you know what, she was a dingbat. LOL 

I love Archie Bunker! My estranged wife told me right before she left me that I am almost exactly like him. Why do you think I know that name calling is ‘domestic abuse’? LOL
I have changed my ways and no longer verbally abuse my estranged wife. I see her 3 times a week and we get along just fine.

You know, when women get mad, many times they resort to name calling also. I’ve been called alot of flattering names in the heat of passion! It’s a two way street. However, if a couple get mad and call each other names, but realize it was wrong and done in the heat of anger, that’s not really verbal abuse and certainly not domestic vioilence. If that were the case, every fucking couple in the entire United States would be guilty at some point. Many times, the women are worse about that verbal bullshit than men and do it on purpose to try and provoke the man, like my brother’s wife.  Most guys just want to have good food, good sex and relax at home. They don’t generally care about all that other bullshit.  Anyway, where’s Horsey? I think he’s upset about that SQE nonsense. Another example of a woman making trouble on purpose. LOL

Chitowndago,  You are a man among men! Thank you. What is Hungry Hill like these days in the Heights? I used to go out with one of the cheerleaders in College who lived down in South Holland. I thought it was real nice there. She was Polish American but her family was real aware of good old Chicago Heights and the Mafia Group based further South.

Black Angelo,  I love your humor. 5 finger discount syndrome! True Chicago. The readers need to be aware that Bookmaking is still big business in Chicago. I don’t understand why anyone would think differently? Anyway, Let’s both of us make it clear that all the made guys, in one form or another, who are supervising Bookmaking franchises all over the city and Suburbs, are working with Marco and his men in some kind of fashion. If there is a true deadbeat gambler and nobody wants to take a chance on enforcing some kind of violence, the word will be spread to everyone else , not to take action from the deadbeat. that’s his ultimate punishment until he finds a way to allow the outfit to collect in one way or another. THE DEADBEAT’S NAME NAME WILL GET CIRCULATED.  Marco’s men have their own 25% agents plus they take some of the Layoff action from Cicero, Grand Ave. & 26th St. This is the way the Outfit has always worked. Years ago,  Cortina and Angelini played the Dominent role from the Cicero Crew.  Black,  Do you agree? Your thoughts?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/69279478/1974-1985-revised

Use the toolbar to zoom in and out if you think it’s too small. This is a better way to post these than Google docs.

My wife calls me names sometimes when she get angry. Specifically, she’ll call me “horsey fart ” sarcastically sometimes. “Go take the trash out, horsey fart” … “Go play with your internet friends, horsey fart,” and so on. She did it once when her parents were visiting, and so I tried to explain it away, as some inside joke. I brought it on myself, I suppose. 

Speaking of Tosto, SQE seems to have taken her ANP act over to his YouTube channel. She’s on his team now, I guess. Good for us.

Thats what i tell my girlfriend all the time.

LOL!!!

LOL

I posted this from another,
far slower computer, not sure if it went through. The weird name was just a typo
then I left it so people would know who was responding.

That is an interesting and
believable answer Joe. That makes sense.

Don, I don’t really ‘believe’
anything. I am skeptical of some conventional wisdom about the Chicago mob. It
does seem to me that the feds if they really wanted to would not have a hard
time flipping a bunch of bar owners. I’m not saying that the scam doesn’t
exist, I’m just puzzled as to why the FBI or police wouldn’t just shut it down
and go after them because it seems like it would be a very easy thing to do.

Similarly I am somewhat skeptical
that the mob has as large a presence in online gambling as people tend to believe.
During its history the mob kept control of its rackets on a local level through
the use of violence. I don’t believe they could effectively compete in a
quasi-legal endeavor against legitimate entities with far more financial
resources. What’s their leg up if they’re not putting people in car trunks?
Steve Wynn alone has a larger net worth than the entire mob.

Also, from the Capone days
through the 90s known mobsters were regularly arrested for their current
criminal activities. How many times did Tony Spilotro, Harry Aleman, get
arrested? When was the last time a mobster in Chicago was indicted on a
#current# charge? The Family Secrets stuff was all decades old. The Mike Sarno
stuff is old. No one under the age of 50 has been arrested in a very long time.

During Family Secrets,
nothing came out about current rackets. With all that testimony flying around,
all the indictments, all the witnesses, nothing current came up.

Like I said, I find it
interesting. 

I think your right on, as is Joe. People paying off now are remembering the old days when a collection agent came by and beat the money out of you, or worse.  Big Gamblers can bet in so many legit places now, I do not see why they would risk it with the Outfit. The outfit enjoys taking businesss’ from degenerate gamblers.  Of course degenerate’s make bad decisions and get banned from casino’s or ban themselves and then the outfit guys are there to finish them off if they have assests left.  The bar owners that play along do so for financial reason’s, they get half the revenue, and owning a bar today is not as profitable as it was in better times, before the economic downturn and the smoking ban.  For most of the local taverns it is not hard to monitor, they have regulars who play and they pay them, anyone suspicious or “new” they do not, hell I wouldn’t be suprised if when the sheriffs do there once a decade raids on the “cherry masters” it is because the bars getting busted are light on there envelopes to the outfit.

Ringwalk or whoever,

I think you said that nothing came out during Family Secrets about current rackets. That’s only partially true. Mike Talerico received immunity and acknowledged the fact that he was currently engaged in illegal bookmaking as a source of personal income. As you know, he is the nephew of the LaPietra brothers. Also, in the Sarno trial, Dublino testified (again, under immunity) that he had not ceased his coin operating poker racket, even when under threat of violence from Mike Sarno. That I know of, Dublino isn’t affiliated, but Talerico definitely is. I’m almost 100% sure he isn’t made, though–regardless of that cockamamie news story that he was the acting capo of the 26th St. crew after Johnny Apes passed away.

I saw that and wasn’t even going to bother bringing it up. But since it was….HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

Thanks Don,
“Hungry Hill’ There’s a little blast from the past.  They just call it “The Hill’ now. It’s completely different now. All Blacks & Hispanics there now.

Hello everybody,

Does anyone have heard about one Mario B*o*o*o*e ? He’s supposed to be the n°2 of the Camorra’s Licciardi clan and running in the Chicago area various boutiques of counterfeit goods (lux clothing, Bosch & Hilti drilling machines, Canon digital cameras…).

What about Antonio and Carmine M*s*a, two alleged members of the fearsome Camorra’s Secondigliano Alliance clan ?

Best regards

What’s this got to do with the Outfit ? Who cares. Their just some Italian businessmen running some legitimate business. The Outfit owns alot of property. Go down on Rush Street or through Oak Brook sometime (just to name a few places) and find out who leases out all the property to this or that restaurant or businesses it would surprise some but not others. Go down to Marco Island and find out who owns all the land down their.

Don, 5 finger discount man.. that is my new moniker for Mike Magnafichi. It was going to be the “Oak Brook Bungalar” but I like “The 5 finger discount man”. And again you nailed it right on the head.

Essentially Marco has a monopoly on gambling and soon to be gaming. And what alot of these gamblers are also doing now is making bets on the internet and laying off with one of Marco’s books or someone he is partner’d with. And or vice versa. Some of the new laws they have on “video poker” has only helped the Outfit become more legit.

It’s easier to get away with gambling now too. If you get arrested for gambling these days you must be taking in millions in bets on a given day (on a football weekend) or be a complete moron. Law Enforcement has been handicaped by new inventions (like the IPhone) and the internet.

Yes I remember reading about Tellerico and another half-active bookmaker in Bridgeport too. I guess it’s a question of scale. 

On the other hand, I remember Nick Calabrese testifying that in the late 90s (I think) he simply told certain people their crew had had been extorting/collecting protection money from for decades that they could just stop.

I also find it interesting that Scalise and Rachel were planning on breaking into Angelo LaPietra’s old home before being arrested. I know the mob isn’t the most loyal organization in the world but it seems that they would have feared some kind of retribution. Perhaps  they were attracted to the score thinking that the remaining LaPietras who live in the house would not have been able to report the ill-gotten loot to the police.

I like “Oak Brook Bungalar” much better! LOL
I have no clue what ‘Bungalar’ means, but it sounds funny.

Joe,  Is it okay if I call SQE  a troublemaking bullshitting Nutcase or is that considered verbal abuse by today’s paranoid overly sensitive standards of everything? I know it’s far more important to be politically correct than to offend someone with the truth.  We absolutely cannot have the truth, that would be unheard of ! LOL

Dear The Don,
SQE and Tosto are together now. We should allow them to have the happiness they both deserve.

As to Tosto’s false accusation that I conned my family (mother and grandmother), please read this article and click on the two hyperlinks that display affidavits by both my mother and grandmother, who both explain who contacted them for blood money – it was not me.
Sincerely,
JF

http://americannewspost.com/joseph-fosco/2978/joseph-giacchino%E2%80%99s-victimization-of-my-grandmother/

Dear The Don,
SQE  was my date to the wedding of  Mr. & Mrs. Gene Simmons.
Please refrain from judging my taste in women. I’m  a huge fan of paranoid schizophrenic women that reside in trailer parks.
I would also like to inform you that we both attended Costco’s “Open session for detective investigative proficiency courses”, specializing in the apprehension of, but not limited to,  Italian looking men wearing flagged jackets as well as hardware store shoppers.
I am obligated to make you aware of the fact that, as a loving couple, we also attended the University of Psychic Hotlines. We graduated Magna Cum Loudly!
While vacationing in the anals of Manheim Road, we  then decided to take it upon ourselves to further our vast education. We then enrolled at the “School of Flyer Distribution.”
Our educational venture did not end there. We once again continued our pursuit of investigative knowledge by enrolling in the “School of Literary Arts” professed by Mr. John Kass & Mr. Steven Warmbir.
You might ask yourself; “When wil such a loving couple refrain from such a rigorous academic schedule?”
Well, my good sir, we are going to take a break from our hectic educational schedule very soon.
We have one last course that we have enrolled in. When the course is completed, we plan on purchasing a nice double wide trailer, and hope to solve the wrongs of the world.
What was the last course that we are enrolled in you ask?
“Greg Tosto’s School of Etiquette”  specializing in the implementation of YouTube skills by a bald, foul-mouth, illiterate, tool box, ghetto hat wearing,  attention whore, bullshitting pot head bum.”

Dear The Don,
SQE  was my date to the wedding of  Mr. & Mrs. Gene Simmons.
Please refrain from judging my taste in women. I’m  a huge fan of paranoid schizophrenic women that reside in trailer parks.
I would also like to inform you that we both attended Costco’s “Open session for detective investigative proficiency courses”, specializing in the apprehension of, but not limited to,  Italian looking men wearing flagged jackets as well as hardware store shoppers.
I am obligated to make you aware of the fact that, as a loving couple, we also attended the University of Psychic Hotlines. We graduated Magna Cum Loudly!
While vacationing in the anals of Manheim Road, we  then decided to take it upon ourselves to further our vast education. We then enrolled at the “School of Flyer Distribution.”
Our educational venture did not end there. We once again continued our pursuit of investigative knowledge by enrolling in the “School of Literary Arts” professed by Mr. John Kass & Mr. Steven Warmbir.
You might ask yourself; “When wil such a loving couple refrain from such a rigorous academic schedule?”
Well, my good sir, we are going to take a break from our hectic educational schedule very soon.
We have one last course that we have enrolled in. When the course is completed, we plan on purchasing a nice double wide trailer, and hope to solve the wrongs of the world.
What was the last course that we are enrolled in you ask?
“Greg Tosto’s School of Etiquette”  specializing in the implementation of YouTube skills by a bald, foul-mouth, illiterate, tool box, ghetto hat wearing,  attention whore, bullshitting pot head bum.”

Great piece! LOL

The Don’
I totally agree with you again.
I’ve read a lot about New York. I have never been impressed. The are all very vocal and “Killy Happy.”
The “Outfit” I am partial to, but when you look at the big picture “They got it!”
P.s. My Grandfather says hello…he actually say’s it out loud and thinks we are going to get a response instantly when we post on here. lol!
I never ask him about killings either. He has made comments about people that are gone & I have not commented because you  guys are usually right on with what he says.

Excellent!  That’s the best verbally abusive, rude, politically incorrect but truthful statement I’ve heard on these threads in the last couple of days! Thank You. Now we’re getting back to fucking reality.

Dear Black Angelo,

First of all, thank you for your reply.

Well, actually it seems that a lot of  “legitimate Italian businessmen” (apparently the huge majority of them Calabrians), like you say, were running business in the US, opening boutiques, stands, restaurants… all over the country (they are in love with Canada too).

From what you say — and equally from what it is heard in Europe –, I conclude that they operate very indenpendently, basically without any contact, from the American Mafia.

Nevertheless, in the opinion of the Italian Anti-Mafia Commission, they have equally established connections with very, very, very powerfull and wealthy “friends” (and the scariest people one could ever meet)… friends who like to drink tequila.

Best regards

Chi town be nice.  Whats funny is all the little stores and stuff didn’t have to change the buildings all painted with Italian flags cuz they all became groceria’s  Its weird there’s a small pocket of old timers that still live there, my nonna still lives across the street from San rocco, the lodge is there, Chit town maybe il run into you at Three Star one of these days.  A guy i haven’t heard anyone mention unless its on the chart is Mike Rossi quiet owner of 390 down on Joe Orr, a friend of mine older guy just passed like 2 years ago that used to run with Morengo and them

Question: Does anyone know the address of where Giancana grew up in the Patch? Chances are it was demolished by the freeway or UIC. Haven’t been able to find that address online. 

I’ve seen his house in Oak Park. Also ate at Andrea’s restaurant, the old Armory Lounge, not bad! 

Ringwalk,  I think it was demolished when the expansion took place years ago. However, I could be wrong.  I also would like to add something about the bookmaking in Chicago and suburbs.  Remember, Chicago has always traditionally been a City ( which includes the suburbs) of neighborhoods.  Many of the guys in neighborhoods like to hang out in local spots  and that’s where Bookmaking activity takes place, in particaular the collections and payouts from and to the  bettors.  It’s part of the culture and atmosphere.  Also,  most bettors don’t want to have a RECORD of their bets which is what happens when it’s done ‘ On Line’  for various reasons.  

Dear Don Q, I meant most of the Outfit Guys and their associates or children own alot of land and property and lease out space to business all over Chicago and in Lake Geneva (Wisconsin), and Marco Island (Florida).

However I’m sure some of the Calabrians have some businesses here and operate on a small scale not making any waves (they are illegal after all, not American citizens). But not on the scale of the Outfit. That kind of clout in Chicago (when dealing with zoning rights etc etc and what not ) takes years to build up.

The Outfit guys and their associates have about as much money as the Calabrians. So then it comes down to “who you know” and that is where the rubber meets the road. The Outfit has connections to politicians and police officers that go back 50 years and for some OutfitMade Guys longer than that (especially if their fathers knew each other). The Calabrians dont have that. However if some Zips need something in Chicago or a favor they would go to a Chicago Mafia Member (Outfit Guy inasmuch).

The “legitimate Italian Businessmen and or women” in fact really are the Outfits associates and or children. Alot of Outfit guys via juice loans and putting money into different business own alot of what you buy and frequent in Chicago.

Got it! 

Black Angelo,  Very well stated!  In fact I’ll go one more on that subject.  I think years ago, ‘Juice’ was the biggest money maker for the Outfit.  A lot of legitimate businesses became ‘Partners’ with Outfit  made men along with all the Insurance Scam  ‘BUST OUTS’ that occured because the debtor had no other way to pay back the Juice. Even the made guys who specialized in Gambling also earned from Juice. Then, of course, you had your Outfit men who completely specialized in Juice and Bust Outs. Fifi Bucciere, Sam Battaglia, Phil Alderisio, Chuckie Nicoletti,  Sam DeStefano, Willie Daddono,  Turk Torello,  etc. etc.

Hello Black Angelo and The Don,

First of all, thank you for your replies, it’s really a pleasure to read you !

Per sure, the Outfit is more powerfull and politically connected than the ‘Ndrangheta in the US and has undoubtedly a far larger history there.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to see how the Calabrian Mafia manages to introduce itself in the US, keeping a very low profile (it does the same in Spain, France, Netherlands, Germany, Colombia, Canada, Australia… well, a very long list, the ‘Ndrangheta is a world-scale organization with approximately 6 000 members, 72 000 associates and a nuclear of approximately 500 hardcore hitmen, “Mexican style” (rocket launchers, AK 47 rifles…)).

At an international level, the ‘Ndrangheta is, with the Mexican crime syndicates (in particular the Sinaloa Cartel of the infamous Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman Loera, who makes Forbes billionaire list), the fast growing organized crime syndicate, and, like the Mexican Cartels, its power is based primarily on the cocaine trade. The ‘Ndrangheta is very similar with the Mexican Cartels, controlling in its territory a large range of diversified companies (very few informations about the ‘Ndrangheta, but its Sinaloa counterpart supposelly controlled over 3 500 legal enterprises in Mexico and all across the world), and, at an international level, operating in the drug trade (the ‘Ndrangheta has been included in the Drug Kingpin Organizations by the White House these recent years). It ‘s not really a surprise that the Mexicans and the Calabrians works hand to hand, and what it is interesting above the US, is the fact that it seems that the Calabrians and the Mexicans have socialized there (see for example the “Solare Operation” conducted by the American, Mexican and Italian authorities).

It’s really a pleasure to read you !

Best regards

Don Quichotte,  On a Global level, there is no question that the Sicilian Mafia, Calabrian Mafia or the Neopolitan Mafia, are larger and more powerful than the Current status of the Outfit. However, NOT IN  Chicago. Are you saying the Calabrian Mafia is more powerful than the Sicilian Mafia on a Global level? I doubt it. When it comes to the maufacturing and distribution of Heroin or cocaine, nobody can beat the Sicilians as far as organization, secrecy and loyalty. The only problem with the Sicilian Mafia, is that the Clans are numerous and  fragmented. Occasionally wars break out among them. At least in the past, they had an alliance with the Columbians on the Global trade. Right now in Mexico, The far more Fragmented Mexican Cartels are killing each other so fast that the Useless Bullshit Mexican Government can’t even keep up with the Body count. Did you see what happened in Monterey, Mexico about two months ago? Nobody in their right mind in the Chicago Outfit would want to have anything to do with any of those Global Drug Cartels. There is way too much risk, treachery, violence and 100 year prison sentences. The Only real connection that has existed, at least in the past, has been between the Sicilian Mafia and part of the New York American Mafia, in particular the Bonnanno Family. Look at what it did to the Stupid Bonnanno Family. As soon as the Zips moved in with the Bonnano Family, they started to take over and the Italian American Bonnano Mob Guys didn’t know what hit them. The Zips are dangerous and not trustworthy. Their first loyalty is always to the Sicilian Clan they are with and their distribution of the packages (Dope).  They don’t care about anything else.

Hi the Don,

I am totally agree with you when you say that the Outfit is far much stronger that the ‘Ndrangheta in Chicago and in the US. This is clear.

In Europe, the ‘Ndrangheta is considered the most powerfull organized crime syndicate, and, according to a lot of organized crime experts, a global threat menace, having developped networks all over the world (mainly linked to the drug trade: they supposedly controlled over 80% of the cocaine trade in Europe). The Calabrians are as well organized as the Sicilians but more secretive — unlike to the Sicilian Cosa Nostra, it has never been an hight level informant in the Calabrian ‘Ndrangheta — and low profile. Recently, talking about the ‘Ndrangheta, an Australian law enforcement agent said that the world is assisting to an “economic colonisation”. Nevertheless, although they are very low profile out of Italy, the Calabrian mafiosi are able to be ruthless and execute hight profile hits in other countries (for example, the massacre of Duisbourg (Germany) which takes place in August 2007, and probably what happened in Montreal these last two years).

The Sicilian Cosa Nostra — althought it remains a very strong group, the n°2 in Europe — is in disarray since the terrorist reign of its former leader Toto Riina. At an international level, the Calabrians had taken the place of the Sicilians relatively to the global drug trade.

Relatively to the Mexican Cartels, people in Italy are very upset. Francesco Forgione, who managed the Anti-Mafia Crime Commision until recently, said that these groups look like the Italian Mafias in respect to their infiltration in the politic and the economic worlds (a 2008 study of Eduardo Buscaglia reveals that 78% of the Mexican Economy is infiltrated by the Mexican Cartels). A group like the Sinaloa Cartel, considered the strongest organized crime group established in the American continent, is very, very smartly managed, presided by a little commission (composed by Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman Loera, Ismael “El Mayo” Zambada Garcia…) and having its fingers in a lot of activities, illegal (drug trafficking, weapon trafficking, prostitution, human smuggling, contract killing…) and legal (construction industry, advocate industry, garment industry, musical industry, oil industry…). Considering the Sinaloa state (“the Mexican Sicily” like it is said in Mexico) — of which come the biggest Mexican drug lords (Joaquin Guzman Loera, Ismael Zambada Garcia, Arturo Beltran Leyva, Amado Carillo Fuentes…) — it can be said that it looks very like Sicily or Calabria: It is a rural state, abandoned by the Mexican government, and inhabited by very secretive people — the Sinaloan people don’t talk to strangers except if they are Catholic priests or teachers — with very strong blood ties. Well, according to the DEA, the Sinaloa Cartel is considered “the most powerfull drug trafficking organisation in the world” and Joaquin Guzman Loera “the most powerfull drug lord in history”. The rapprochement between the Mexican Cartels and the Italian Mafias at a global level is a very bad new.

Well, I apologize, like had said Black Angelo, this has nothing to do with the Outfit, but I think it is a very interesting talk, thank you guys !

Best regards  !

Joe,  Do you believe the Outfit had any real detailed involvement in the Kennedy Assassination? Kkanz , who had a relative and real good source from the Taylor St. Crew,  doesn’t think they were involved.  My relative never commented on it and I never asked him that question. Your thoughts?

I point blank asked one of my elderly friends (who is now deceased) if the Chicago Outfit contributed to the demise of JFK. In my opinion, based on the answer that I received from my now late friend, I wholeheartedly believe that the Chicago Outfit played a significant role in assassinating President Kennedy.

I know the owner of 3 Star. That’s been there forever. Doesn’t get as busy as it used to. We can play Bocce ball out back!  lol@ 390 Women work there to support their habit. I know where San Rocco is.

Joe, did you ever hear any good stories about the Villa Venice shows back in 1962?

Mugsy Tortorella, had a least one eligitimate son….me, Ron James Tortorella….looking for info.