In 1917 Russia was gripped by two revolutions. The February Revolution saw the abdication of the Romanov Tsar Nicholas II and the formation of a shaky provisional government. The second, and more famous, October Revolution saw the ascension of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin’s Communist party. This led to the Russian Civil War between the Communists, known as the Workers’ and Peasants’ Red Army, and anti-Communist nationalists known as the White Army.
Lenin realized that the White Army could use the Romanov Family as a rallying point for their cause as a national symbol of unity. The Romanov’s extensive ties to neighboring nobility also meant that other nations were more likely to help the White Army in their war with the Communists. Therefore, Lenin ordered the whole family to be executed.
The parallels between the Russian Civil War and the gangland war between the Irish and Italians was not lost on Capone. According to my sources, Capone was intrigued by various power-grabbing tactics used by people in high places throughout the world. To obtain the power that would one day become synonymous with his name, Capone often tried to emulate the moves of other powerful people. The brutal simplicity of the Romanov family execution definitely had its appeal.
Paul Ricca
Alphonse Capone (the one and only) was the organizer of the Massacre. However, he relied on a few others to aid him. The extraordinary Outfit leader Paul Ricca was another Capone-ally who conspired with the intimate group of racketeers, helping Capone mastermind the gangland assassination of several rival mobsters on what turned out to be Saint Valentine’s Day.
Among this intimate group of allies was a man named Tony Iorii. The now late Mr. Iorii was a force to be reckoned with in the old Capone regime. Capone gave Iorii his own territory, which was mainly located throughout Northeastern Illinois and Southern Wisconsin. Mr. Iorii was extremely wealthy and politically powerful. He dabbled in moonshine, though he made the bulk of his fortune in slots and other vending machines.
91 Comments
Very interesting Joe. Ive never heard joey o’s name mentioned before, but makes sense. Speculation always rested on Joe B, with recent theories blaming actual Chgo Cops.Its still a hotbed of discussion after all these years.
I always figured joey o was involved. I assume thats how he eventually got cicero and brcame capones guy at a young age. I thought that was the start of him and joe b and thats why joey o was always loyal to joe b and y joeb gave the power to joey o.
Dear Mn,
I am not ruling out that Joe B was involved. I have not been able to verify it, which is why I have not named him. Another point I would make (I think The Do would appreciate it), other capable and well trusted gangster were deliberately left out of the operation because it was high risk and Capone did not want to run the chance of losing them (Taylor Street). However, once the massacre became an overall success, Capone appreciated the willing participants much more than he did previously.
Mn, Joey O was seperate of Joe B. The only person Joe B ever gave power to was his lackey Cerone. At one time Joe B was underboss of the Outfit in the 1940s. But Joey O equaled him because he had power in Cicero. Mooney changed the dynamics of the Outfit when he leap frogged both Joey O and Joe B to become Top Boss in the Outfit.
Joe B was never a Top Boss in the Outfit. If he was it was a brief time in the early 1950s and then he was replaced aburptly by Mooney. But Ricca was in control from 1930s/40s till 1957. Then became chairman till his death in 72. Joe B became a top advisor and nothing more till his death in 1992.
Another person that may been involved in the Massacre was Carl Torraco “Charlie” (he was Obrien’s right hand man for many many years) and i’ve heard Ross Prio was involved because he knew the area of Chicago well. Or was involved in the burning of the vehicle.
Mn, Listen to what Black Angelo posted above me. He is absolutely correct. Mooney was stronger then Auippa and Accardo. Why? Because he was smart, had balls bigger than the Sears Building, and had a tremendous nucleus of power which will never be equaled again, the Taylor St. Crew which was the West Side Crew overseeing the First Ward which was headed originally by Ricca who was smart enough to bring in Mooney who in turn brought in all his fiercely loyal men to join what Ricca already had in place. Ricca & Mooney built the strongest Mafia group ever in the United States bar none. Accardo’s power base was Grand Ave. and then Elmwood Park. Auippa’s power base was the Cicero Crew which was Capone’s old power base. Accardo was powerful, but really gave Auippa nothing. I believe Auippa’s power came from Capone and then Ricca. Cerone got his power through Accardo. Accardo was never the The Top Boss of the Outfit. He was the Underboss of the entire Outfit until 1957. After that he was a high level semi-retired Advisor. Also, Ross Prio was a fucking powerhouse and Boss of the North Side Crew. I don’t know how old Prio was in 1929, but he very well might have been involved in the Valentine’s Day Massacre. in 1929, Auippa was only about 22 years old and I know Prio was older than Auippa.
The Don, Ross Prio was 27/28 in 1929 and grew up in lil Sicily which was centered around the Near North Side of Chicago (where they would later build and then tear down the Cabrini Greens Housing Projects). It was a deadly area back then (1920s) and now (2011). Must be something in the water.
And Obrien did get all his power from Capone. Right around 1931. Rock DeGrazia had Joey O’s beloved Melrose Park. So Obrien was given Cicero w/ Bobby Taylor (who did have an Italian Surname). Ricca uprgraded Obriens power in Cicero even more in the 1940s. (ricca did like joey o very much).
Joe B had nothing to do with Obriens power. Hell Jack Cerone got his START IN CICERO. As a card dealer at one of Obrien’s joints. Sometime in the late 1940’s Cicero powerbase gave up Cerone and let Joe B (Grand Ave) have him since that was his every day companion/lackey. This was right around the time Elmwood Park would come into existense.
Mooney of course would change the dynamics of everything. Ricca understood Mooney was basically running his own crime family (which was Taylor Street) that was damn near equal to his Outfit (and the Outfit was big and bad then). By the way Ricca was closest to Taylor Street more than any street crew in Chicago.
I dont think Mooney was ever a capo or underboss. After Mooney was released from prison (1942/43) he belonged to Joe B. Mooney broke away from Grand Ave around 1951/52 and that is when his rise began. But Mooney was smarter and had more balls than Joe B. And what hurt Joe B was that Mooney was MORE AMBITIOUS.
He literally leapfrogged Obrien and Joe B. Nobody would of predicted Mooney’s fast rise when he was released from prison in the early 1940s. But he was smart, had balls, and was ambitious and a supreme organizer of men. Those 4 attributes would later get him knocked down (Very Ironic). Obrien did the right thing.. to protect his own Empire in 1975. Interesting..
I named the club where Cerone started out here: http://americannewspost.com/joseph-fosco/473/the-outfit%e2%80%99s-rose-a-tribute-to-the-late-clara-cerone/
An 80-year-old nephew of Lefty Campegna was my source on the Cicero portion of the article linked in this comment. Lefty was also one of the people involved in helping Capone plan the SVDM. I decided not to name him in the article because my sources lacked details on his participation.
Black Angelo, Are you sure about Mooney being with Accardo after he got out of prison in 1943 and then broke away from him in 1951? I believe Ricca was always Mooney’s mentor. Ricca’s power base was right where Mooney and his sub group were located.
It may have been Ricca. But when Mooney got out he was scheming big time. His rise would be that African American Gambling Racket. But Mooney may have been w/ Ricca (as I stated before Ricca had roots going back to the 1920s on Taylor.. he was a waiter at Diamond Joe’s restaurant). So more than likely Mooney was with Ricca. Mooney was w/ Joe B when that got arrested in 1945/46. Not even sure if Joe B had more power than Tony Cap anyhow during that time frame.
Correct. Ricca’s crew was the West Side Crew and after Mooney got out of prison in 1943, it was Ricca who mentored him. Mooney would have been suspicious of a being mentored by somebody from Grand Ave. Mooney was very much a Taylor St. man and only really trusted men he grew up with. Since Ricca was in his area and the Top Boss Of the Outfit, Mooney aligned himself with Paul. you’re coorect that Ricca’s deepest roots were back on Taylor St. That would have endeared Mooney to him.
Correct. Mooney was with Ricca in fact upon release in 42/43
@Black Angelo, are you refering to “Tough” Tony Capezio, the co-proprietor of the Circus Cafe ? I’m no expert, far from it, but from reading the posts and past threads, I just have a problem with “JB” being just an average goombah, I always thought he was respected and had authority from the Early 40’s until his passing in the 90’s, but I am young and you fellas are wiser, more familiar with and know insiders who have the reliabe dope so to speak, so much thanks and respect for your opinions/statements, look forward to reading your comments “BA”.
Joey O and Jack’s crews thought of Joe B as a God, which essentially made him one from the 70s (after Paul’s death) until his death in 1992.
At the risk of upsetting people, Claude and Cap did not own Circus Cafe – I do not care how many books might say so. A sleeper who was very tight with them actually owned it. Most people (as always) took for granted the Claude and Cap owned it.
@The Don, I believe from my research that you comment is correct.
Joe, Good look into the mind of Al Capone and why he made certain moves. The War was between the Italians & the Irish ( Not just the Sicilian Italians, Capone was from Naples and & Ricca was from some other part of Southern Italy). The Italians were obviously much more cunning than the Irish. I knew Romie Nappi got his start with Ricca. Parr Finance used to refer people who were turned down for loans to Messino & Lombardi. Also, knowing the way You & I both feel about the Roman Catholic Archdiocese, I didn’t quite understand your comment about suggesting Bill to contribute to them over the last five years? You even wrote another article on Organized Religion stating that people should tithe their anger towards the Roman Catholic Archdiocese instead of their money, of which I personally agree.
Dear The Don,
I will make the change from Sicilian to Italian. It was an oversight. Thank you.
I am aware that Willie and Joe L were taking action related to Parr.
From 2003 to roughly 2009, I was a loyal supporter of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese. When I indicated that I am grateful to Bill for his philanthropy, I meant that I am grateful that he was kind enough to me to send checks because I made the suggestion. Thank you for allowing me to clarify.
the accounts i have heard(from people that would be over 100 years old if alive)are much different of the published ones.capone and moran had brokered a deal some years before the massacare,however a few renegades from morans crew felt that bugs had given way to many concessions to capone.the dissent grew to the point that these guys were plotting to kill moran.bugsy got wind of this and through,i believe,big jake,arranged a metting with al.the main plotters against him were set up to be murdered with bugsy appearing to escape luckily.. he did that so the rest of his crew would not be upset about the killings of some of their good friends.he even had a hand in recruiting some of the killers.
Kkanz, That is a real interesting theory. You’re right, Capone and Moran had struck an understanding. Moran was centerd on the North Side, ( In what eventually became Ross Prio’s area) and Capone had the much bigger South Side Centered in Cicero. So, you’re saying that Moran actually set up the traitors in his crew to be mudered and then pretended to escape that fate by luck so he wouldn’t be hated by some of his other men. That is interesting and very cunning for an Irishman. I don’t think he would have recruited any of the actual shooters though, because his men would have recognized them even wearing Cop Uniforms. I think all the shooters were Capone’s men. Did you hear of this theory of Moran getting rid of his traitors from your relative? If you did, that would add a lot of creedence to it. Joe, what do you think of this theory?
most definetly don,and not in the course of story telling but in regaurds to current(at the time)business.
I think that anyone who feels that Capone did not plan out the SVDM is being unreasonable.
Joe, I don’t think Kkanz is saying that Capone didn’t plan out the Valentine’s Day Massacre. Capone obviously did and used his own men as the shooters. What Kkanz is saying is that Moran somehow conspired with Capone to some of Moran’s own disgruntled men. I presume from your answer above, you feel there is no creedence to the story and that Capone was really trying to kill Moran and as many of his men as possible and there was no cospiracy involved between the two of them to rid Moran of his disgruntled men. Am I correct in evaluating your thoughts?
Joe, Please add the work “kill” after the word ‘to’ in the third sentence. Thanks.
don,my intent is not to argue but to relate some of the things i heard from guys who were known to be very straight shooters(no pun intended)they were not talking to me but i was in their presence a few times that conversation occured.it must be very coincidental that,other then a few isolated incidents,the wars ceased and capone and bugsy moved freely around the city without the protection that they had become known for.they felt it was better to deal with each other with respect and not having to fear for the safety of their loved ones.
valentines day was picked because it was a message of love between the two factions.the old school guys put a lot of creedence in those kind of messages..
Kkanz, I respect you opinion and you won’t get an arguement from me because I never discussed this subject with my relative. I only argue about things of which I am very sure. The person who disagrees with you is Joe Fosco, not me. Personally, I think your theory based upon who you heard it from, is logical and could very well have happened the way you described it.
Kkanz, for sure Fred Burke was involved. Burke sure in hell is not an Italian name. Do you know what Nationality is the name BURKE? Irish. This lends more creedence to your theory.
Yes.
The Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre “model” was repeated on a much smaller scale several times since. One example is the “3 Capos Murder” in 1981 in which Rusty Rastelli’s faction wiped out its rival faction (Trinchera, Indelicato, Giaccone) within the Bonanno family in one fell swoop.
True, except they weren’t dressed as Cops! That was unique.
Before anyone asks, Lee was too young (way too young, LOL) to have participated.
Joe, are you still doing the Lee article?
Teets, The Lee Magnafichi article is next. Should be published in days I imagine. Heard enough stories about Dyno, St Valentines Day Massacre, Mooney. Ready for something new. This article was good, but more of the same ol same ol.. except Obrien (Joey O) was named a shooter (which he probably was). But over it already.. wanna read this Lee article.
Out of all the people attached to Capone, Aiuppa was one of the gunmen? There has always been rumors naming top Outfit leaders as being participants of the 1929 massacre including Accardo and Giancana. I believe Aiuppa was connected to the Capone organization in the 1920’s through other people, but to be directly involved with the massacre, I just don’t buy it. A guy by the name of Fred Burke was alleged to be one of the killers. In fact, the two Thompson’s that were used in the massacre were confiscated from his home in Dec. 1929. The Berrien County Sheriff’s Department still have the guns today.
Sam Louis’ son, Ed, who died earlier this year, was very close to Marco. Marco knows that Ed’s dad was a shooter on the massacre. I am not ruling out others who might have been involved. Ed Louis’ son Sam (named after his father) is the one who had a physical altercation with Michael about 15-years ago. I recall the events of said night. Matt Rodriguez (then boss of the CPD) was around (socially) and took off when the fight broke out.
Additionally, expendable (but capable) people are usually used on matters as risky as the massacare.
I find it interesting that even now, almost 100 yrs later, noone knows for certain, the details of that night. Not a deathbed confession, or a rat has shed any light on wjat really went down. It goes to prove at just how secretive the outfit really is. I heard Joe B. used to like to tease the younger guys by whispering about the SVDM and watch
I was always told to follow the domino effect of who benifited most from having all those guys mowed down in the Massacre. And that person is Ross Prio. He would take over that territory. The shooters could of been anyone… From Joey O to one or all of the 3 killer Dominicks that worked under Ross Prio. One of the Domnicks and Obrien was very very close (he is seated next to Obrien in the last supper picture in 1976.. Obrien being at the head of the table).
Frank Nitti… nicknamed the Enforcer organized the infamous hit with Paul Ricca. It was Nitti’s idea to have two of the men dress up as cops. Ross Prio and Capone benifited the most from it. I would not rule out Capone or Moran did not have anything to do with it. Because Ross Prio could of and would of did out Moran himself. He had an army on the Northside and Lil Sicily. Capone probably read about it down in Miami (where he was the day of 2/14/29) and was like “hmm wow that Ross Prio is something else”).
Dominic DiBella was sitting next to Auippa in the Last Supper Photo.
Black Angelo, I’m with you about this St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. It was in 1929 and I really don’t know what exactly happened. I don’t have any first hand information about it because, to be honest, I never really cared about it one way or another. I never discussed it with my relative who wasn’t even born when it happened. I don’t think anyone on these threads really knows what happened. It’s possible Joey Auippa was one of the gunmen. It’s possible Ross Prio was somehow involved. It’s possible Moran made a truce with Capone and had some of his own disgruntled men killed like Kkanz suggested. It’s possible Machine Gun Jack McGurn was one of the shooters because he got killed exactly 7 years later and they found a Valentine on his body. i do nknow a guy named Fred Burke was involved because they found some of the guns in his house later that year. Burke sure doesn’t sound Italian to me. Capone never really did take over the North Side at that time. Bugs Moran died in 1957 a broke man. I would rather see an article about Lee Magnafichi or about something of which I know.
Yeah i’m ready for the Lee Magnafichi article. Joe better have it in the burner.
How convincing would it be to the massacre victims to have three goomba’s, Accardo, Giancana and Aiuppa (just an example), walk in dressed as cops? Especially, during a time when Chicago’s Police Department was predominantly Irish. The massacre victims obviously went without a struggle, they simply lined up for their own execution because they thought they were dealing with real police. The core of the Capone organization (the Outfit) was /is Italian, but the criminal networking they had extended outside of any ethnic background, as long as it served their purpose. Fred Burke alias Fred Dane was a professional thief, bank robber and stone cold killer. His birth name was not Burke. He was not Italian, as if it matters.
Dom, You’re exactly correct. You misunderstood me when I was responding to Kkanz. The Irish guys WOULD have recognized their OWN Irish guys being dressed as cops, However, they would NOT have recognized three goomba’s dressed as cops. You’re absolutly correct. That’s why the shooters had to be people the massacre victims DID NOT recognize. I don’t know if Capone would have used Burke as one of the shooters. Do you? That’s why I brought up the fact that he was Irish because Kkanz said Moran & Capone conspired together to kill Moran’s Disgruntled men. I don’t know if Burke worked for Capone or Moran and I don’t really care about it.
According to Helmer’s book, most of the guys who had “face” time were Circus Cafe clients, friends and former members of the Egan’s Rats, outta St.Louis which could explain how they were able to get in and get the drop and let the shooters in through the back door. You’re correct, Burke was pinched and the law found guns that had matching numbers and such. So according to this author is was more of a Circus Cafe Gang operation rather than an Outfit backed hit. I mean they knew and helped as much as needed, just my opinion now.
I don’t think Prio was a significant player in 1929. He wasn’t in charge of the Northside Crew until about 1947. Before that there were people like James DeGeorge, Vincent Benevento, Thomas Oneglia and possibly Nick DeJohn.
Black Angelo, I don’t think you saw my posting on the ‘ Corruption Thead ‘ so I will post it here. There are certain things that are obvious and understood in the world of The Oufit as you well know. One of them is stature and who you are with. In the past, my relative said Marcello was Carlisi’s man. Meaning: Marcello is a made man and was the personal underboss to Carlisi. He didn’t have to spell it out. Tocco was Pillotto’s man. Meaning: Tocco is a made man and was the Underboss of the Chicago Heights Crew. He didn’t have to spell it out. Rocky was Joe Ferriola’s man. Meaning: Rocky is a made man and was underboss to Capo Ferriola in the Extended Cicero Crew. He didn’t have to spell it out. DiVarco was Solano’s man. Meaning: DiVarco was a made man and underboss to Solano in the North Side Rush St. Crew. He didn’t have to spell it out. Chuckie English was Mooney’s Man. Meaning: English was a made man direct with Mooney. He didn’t have to spell it out. Now, last example. Marco is Johnny’s man. Meaning: ( You can fill in the blank)
One thing we can say about Johnny DiFronzo is he understood history and Outfit History that is. Meaning the more misinformation you can put out their to the general public… the better you are as an organization. For McDonalds that may not work but for a criminal organzation like the Outfit it can keep the general public even guys with great sources in the dark for 100 years. Case in point the St Valentines Day Massacre or is Marco Damico a MadeGuy ? Cicero offered Marco, this or that, but wait that or this. Johnny DiFronzo knows where Marco stands in the organization.
Just as Obrien, Capone, Ricca, and Prio could rattle off all 4 shooters of the Massacre without hesitation. People are still wondering who in the fuck did it ? Fuck Mooney could tells us who took JFKs brains out on 11/22/63, and why he okay’d Ruby to take out Oswald and why Marilyn Monroe had to go. Try Mooneys man… Mugsy T on the latter person. As Teets would say “Something to chew on” lol.
Black Angelo, When Marco moved from Taylor St. in the mid 1980’s to the spot in Elmwood Park, that was done with the permission of Johnny and was a message to everyone in the Outfit that Marco now belonged to Johnny and was HIS MAN. Translated: Marco was made at that point. Ceremony or no Cremenony. In Fact, after what happened to Auippa, Cerone, LaPietra & Lombardo, No Ceremony would be better! I don’t want to upset anyone but in my opinion, Cicero never offered to make Marco recently because He’s already made and has belonged to Johnny for 25 years. Cicero knows this, they’re not uninformed. Cicero knows Marco’s stature and who he’s been with for 25 years. That story is ridiculous and is probably misinformation done on purpose to confuse people who don’t know really how the Oufit operates. Generally, made guys DON’T WANT ANYONE TO KNOW THEY ARE MADE because they can then be prosecuted more easily under the RICO law! From 1986 forward, there were very few Ceremonies, that’s why in 1989 Rocky Infelice was surpised by the old fashioned details of it.
Exactly Don, couldn’t be more accurate. When I first heard that Cicero had offered Marco to be Made after 25 years with Johnny DiFronzo (and an additional 25 years before that of racketering).. I thought it was a joke or the craziest thing i had ever heard, but then after thinking maybe the most cunning thing by Johnny DiFronzo.
My source said dont ever underestimate the cunning abilites of Johnny DiFronzo or Marco. My source told me Marco has been laying the ground work he is not Made for decades. Even complaining as if he was not Made (in the hopes a defection/double agent in his crew would run back and tell the FBI ).
Marco is as real as the come in the mob world. A realist if you will. He always knew he was gonna someday get arrested and be looking at prison time. Its the occupational hazzard of a mobster. And Marco although he was Made felt their was really nobody out their that could prove such a thing. Marco was 58 when he went away for 10 years. And you can bet your ass Johnny had him Made before then (way way before then).
And like i’ve stated before and you reiterated when Marco moved from Taylor St. to Elmwood Park .. anyone who had half a brain knew Marco was most definatly Made (because their are some old timers who believe Marco was Made in the early 1970s) way before he moved out to the Elmwood Park Social Club.
There are some people out their (law enforcement/and in the know neighborhood guys) that contend in 1993.. Johnny DiFronzo only trusted 3 men in the Outfit: (1) Marco (2) Peter DiFronzo (3) Joey DiFronzo (the latter in 1993 was a fugitive). But that Marco for a while was tapped by Johnny to RUN THE SHOW indefinetly (Remember all of Black Sam’s crew was gone by then to prison). Johnny was of course released in July of 1994.
Remember The Don what Frank Calabrese Sr said to his son Frank jr. in the FS tapings that “it would surprise you who was the real boss” it was something to that nature, but he made it sound as if you would be shocked. Frank Sr told Frank Jr he would tell him once they was back on the streets together.
He made it clear that the Top Guy was not Andriacchi or Lombardo. But yes their are some guys “in the know” that knew if DiFronzo ever did get convicted for the Indian Reservation thing in San Diego what man Johnny would call upon to hold down things for him. It’s not hard to figure out.
Black Angelo, Also, it is true that Johnny relied on Willie quite a bit. What Joe Fosco said about that is true. However, Willie was a little insecure about himself being a top notch Outfit Guy. Willie was also a little jealous of Marco being a big earner and also being Johnny’s man. Willie knew he couldn’t compete with Marco as far as running a franchise and being a big earner. Why do you think Willie disliked Marco? When one guy dislikes another guy for no real apparent reason, if you look closely enough, it usually involves some kind of extreme competitiveness on their part or some degree of jealously. Especially, when one of the men is insecure about himself. Your thoughts?
Johnny did rely on Willie a bit, but nothing compared to how he relied on Marco. Willie Messino’s Outfit career was very erratic. Willie was nothing more than a companion at Gene’s Deli in his later years.
I’m sure Johnny told Willie alot of misinformation. One of my sources told me point blank that at one time Johnny thought Willie was a DOUBLE AGENT. And now (fast forward to 2011) we have Joe Fosco and he knows all these Outfit secrects. Johnny may have been right.
Johnny may have been right about Willie. He probably kept Willie around to spread misinformation. Johnny does think in all directions.. i’ll give him that. And almost anyone who has met Marco loves him. So for Willie not to like him is very bazaar. Unless their is a really good reason. Their is not one. Besides the fact Johnny tapped Marco to take over things in 93 and not him.
I’m taking Joe’s word for it Wille does not like Marco. Plus credible sources in the Outfit does not mean anything when trying to figure out if a guy is Made. Johnny knows, maybe Pete knows and that Made Guy. Why would Willie Messino or a George Colucci know of his (or anyone elses) status anyhow. Again Johnny knows Marcos status, and all the other Clues will key you in to what he is in the Outfit. That is essentially what the Feds did and oh by the way they have their sources also.
Dear The Don,
The only things that have been upsetting at times are your relentless
argumentative statements, based on your opinions, which take a great deal of
time to respond to (relating to Marco).
Pointing out Willie’s resentment towards Marco does not help your argument,
as I have other credible sources who have confirmed that Marco is not made.
One could argue that you are painting Willie as a jealous type because he had
your relative shit-canned from the EP crew ( I am not suggesting that you are being spiteful, I am
merely raising an open question to support my point).
The G could easily go after a conspirator under RICO regardless of whether
the person is ‘made’. They do it all of the time. In the case of Family Secrets,
the G decided not to go after a made boss (DiFronzo) when they knew that a jury would have convicted him on
the merit that he was a boss during the time of the Spilotro hit (as well as now). In other words, whether the
boss/capo was at the scene of the crime, he was guilty because of his high level
position (CEOs go down like this frequently). RICO would have allowed for DiFronzo to go down. Sorry for getting off point.
In the case of U.S.A v Marco: the G proved Marco was in the Outfit when Marco
plead guilty to the allegations that in part accused him of being an Outfit guy
of sorts. therefore, the theory that Marco is pretending to be a non made member
to avoid an easy indictment is worthless. again, the G established Marco as an
Outfit guy. Therecent video footage of Marco and Johnny together at The Loon,
coupled with Marco’s frequent association with Tony D (a known bookmaker) would
be something a jury would eat up the same way the jury decided that a video of
Conrad Black moving some boxes meant that he committed a crime, which likely
prejudiced them against Black when they voted guilty on a couple of the other
false charges.
Joe, I didn’t ask you to respond to it. I was talking to Black Angelo, not you. In fact I wish you would not respond to Marco being made or not made. You said in the other thread that you were done commenting on the threads, did you change your mind for some reason? My relative wasn’t shit canned from Elmwood Park by anybody, especially Willie, who did not have that kind of power. The only person who got shit canned was Mike Magnafichi. My relative did 9 years in prison for the Outfit and was very well liked by DiFronzo. How many years in prison did Mike Magnafichi do for the Outfit? I don’t have anything against Willie Messino at all. I was just telling Black Angelo, not you, that there was no good reason for Willie to hate Marco. Willie was a little insecure about his stature in the Oufit and so he used to throw his weight around a little too often. I think he was a valuable guy and very loyal. The only reason for Willie hating Marco would have been out of some insecurity on his part. You don’t have to take it personal.
Well you rather addressed me in your comment about hoping that you do not upset anyone, or at least I thought you did. Anyway, fair enough.
Yes, I changed my mind and post comments again.
As for Black’s comment suggesting Willie was thought of as a double agent by DiFronzo is laughable.
Black if you want to challenge the credibility of my sources and, it would be fair if you revealed your identity and the identity of some of your sources so we could make thorough assessments. So far, only phantoms are challenging my work, which is not realistic. Thank you.
Joe, If you don’t mind me asking you, What made you say that Willie got my relative shit canned from Elmwood Park? That is absolutely laughable. Were you just upset and said something you reallt didn’t mean? My relative was ordered to make amends with Willie because of Willie’s seniority. Willie had no power over my relative. Willie refused the gesture which in my opinion makes him a smaller man. My relative then partnered with Castaldo and they ran a juice franchise with soldiers working under them as collectors. In 2002, I attended a dinner for some Italian Club downtown, it might have been the Sons of Italy, I don’t remember. Anyway, DiFronzo was there with a couple of the other guys and he was wearing a coat draped over his shoulders. HE came over to the table and Hugged and greeted my relative. They basically came up together. Johnny is only 8 years older than my relative. He would never have shit canned a loyal man who did 9 years total in prison and never said a word because of a disagreement with Willie. I told you how it happened and how Johnny resolved it. To be honest with you, I take what you said as a deliberate passive aggressive way of trying to insult me.
Perhaps I misunderstood something. I thought you recently stated in the threads that your uncle and Willie had a pissing match over the temperature in your uncles club and Willie made an issue out of being disrespected, which caused your uncle to disassociate with Willie and EP. Correct it if something is wrong.
You didn’t misunderstand anything about the story. You even commented about it. Go back and read it because I’m not repeating it again.
in addition, i understood your comment about the matter to mean that the situation was the driving force that caused your uncle his departure from Willie and the EP guys.
He never departed from the Elmwood Park Crew. His only departure was from Willie.
Was Marco there? He is the only Outfit guy I care about now.
He would of been in prison 8 years ago Guido.
It was a joke Angelo, or good old fashioned ball busting!
No, But SQE was there sitting with a phoney priest named Father Guido.
I just said that to get you back on the threads and you took the bait lol. Although my source did say why did Willie talk to Joe Fosco about so much confidential business. He found it strange.
Anyhow, This couldnt of went unoticed by Johnny DiFronzo especially if you went to Gene’s Deli with the fella over 1,000 times. loose lips sink ships.
I do believe Willie was loyal (especially to DiFronzo) because he allowed Willie to make a living after Cerone went away. But he was very jealous of Marco. Marco had more power than Willie because Johnny SAID SO.
Marco being 21 years younger than Willie probably did not sit well with him either. But he was either loyal enough to the Outfit to tell you Marco was not Made or just plain jealous (envious also).
Great article as always. Traditionally the theory is that McGurn did most of the planning. Roemer is the one who said he heard via hidden microphones that Accardo was one of the shooters not only on the SVDM, but Frank Yale’s killing in Brooklyn on July 1, 1928. I tried to obtain the transcripts of this recording but so far the FBI tells me they cannot find it.
When forensic testing was done on the weapons found in Fred Burke’s place they were not only connected to the SVDM, but the Yale killing. According to one source, Lefty Campagna was on hand in Brooklyn because he new the area well. I haven’t heard anything to confirm that Aiuppa was one of the shooters, but it has been long rumored. Regarding how he got his started, I heard it was under Ralph Capone, who was known to have been the power in Cicero when his brother was running the Outfit.
Just curious, has anyone read Bill Helmer’s new book on the subject, “Al Capone and His American Boys”? He claims that most of the shooters were non-Italians like Burke and Fred Goetze. Meanwhile, Jonathan Eig in his new book “Get Capone” claims that Capone had nothing to do with it at all. I think the fact that Burke’s weapons were not only connected to the SVDM but the Frank Yale killing supports the notion that it was committed by the Outfit. Burke, by the way, was reportedly a former member of the St. Louis gang Egan’s Rats, which were said to do occasional work for Capone.
Rick, Good information on your posting above this one. You obviously have studied the St. Valentines’s Day Massacre. The mention of Roemer reminds me of a posting you made about two months ago. I have to say there’s no way Dominic Blasi was an informant for Roemer. He was polite to him but that was it. I went to school with two of Blasi’s relatives. If He ever told Roemer anything, it would have been misinformation on purpose. Roemer had the Spilotro murders completely wrong AND Joe Ferriola being the Top Boss of the Outfit was completely wrong. Roemer had no real good informant. He made up a lot of the shit that he wrote. If Roemer had it on a wire, that would have been his only real credible source of information. He was so way off on a lot of things it would take too much time to go into it. He was MADLY in love with Accardo and you know what they say ” Love is Blind. ” Forget him.
Thanks Don. There is no better place to obtain historical information on the Outfit than here in Joe Fosco’s writings and the replies from posters like you.
You may very well be correct on Blasi, that he was polite and gave out misinformation. I do know that Ralph Pierce WAS an informant, being again, I cannot vouch for the quality of information. Pierce did testify in court before he died, so he may have shared info that was accurate as far as he knew. Plus, as a non-Italian associate, I don’t know how much Outfit info he was privy to.
On Roemer’s claim about Accardo and the SVDM, according to his words it came from the listening device. I have a number of the transcriptions of what was overheard from several FBI files I have, but what I have is very incomplete. Since these were black bag operations they weren’t totally legal and were often filed without names, making them almost impossible to find. I was able to confirm some of what Roemer wrote about what he heard on the bugs, but not everything. The conversation where Accardo is explaining to Giancana about who was on the Commission, for example, is something I have. Much (but not all) of the transcriptions are in the FBI files for Accardo, Murray Humphreys and in various files in the Mary Ferrell site.
So I’d say this about Roemer: when he sticks to the recording he’s accurate, when he goes out on his own then not so much. One important fact that he was unaware of was that the most powerful capo/crew leader was also the boss of the entire Outfit. The first place this tidbit came out? Here, thanks to you guys.
Dear Rick,
Thank you for your kind words.
Wouldn’t write them unless I meant it. You guys are great sources of information. I’d still like to see more written about the organization in the 1930s-40s :-), in the meantime I’ll take those tidbits as I get them and savor them.
Rick,
Thank you for your support. And thank you for your help a few months back!
Glad to help 🙂
Rick, I’m too young to know much about anything before 1957. I wish I did know more back in the 1930’s or 1940’s, but I don’t.
Well, if you know anyone who knows something about the early stuff, please share. People like that aren’t going to be around much longer, and there are many who would appreciate learning more about the past. Thanks, Rick
Rick, Do you have any recording saying Mooney thought the making ceremony was silly?
I haven’t seen anything where Mooney was in a conversation on a making ceremony. I heard about him ridiculing the traditional Mafia ceremony, but haven’t seen it in transcript form. He was Sicilian so from that one could gather that he might have respected it, but as Ricca’s understudy maybe not.
From what I heard the ceremony was different depending on who was the overall boss. During Al Capone’s tenure an oath was made over a special Bible. During the Ricca/Campagna era (and maybe Giancana’s too) they basically took a guy to dinner and told everyone “He’s with us.” Apparently during the 1980s to present it’s a typical Mafia-style ceremony. Wish I knew why the ceremony changed.
If I find anything that’s authentic I’ll let you guys know.
You are absolutely 100% correct. that’s what I was saying previously in another of the famous Joe/The Don arguements. It’s not just my opinion. Ricca & Mooney placed more importance on the stature or position of the man they were making rather than an actual Ceremony. My relative told me the same thing. It depended upon the Boss and how he felt about it. ( That’s why I know Marco was made after 1986 by DiFronzo). DiFronzo wasn’t big on the Ceremony thing either.
At first, I was stunned, I was like wow…books about the Outfit by an ex-“G”Man, little did I know I was reading his fantasy versions of events that may have never happened in real life, just in his mind. I didn’t care much about his boxing career, blah, blah, blah and his clandestine meeting with Accardo rivals a sit down with the President, the guy should’ve just stuck with the facts. Can’t believe everything you read, there is always an angle, one just has to find it out!
I read Helmer’s book on the St.Valentine’s Day Massacre, which in short order puts responsiblility on the doorstep of the Circus Cafe owner Claude Maddox and master planner “Machine-Gun” Jack McGurn. These two were the planners, and members of St.Louis’s Egan’s Rats were used as drivers and fake detectives to make sure that the shooters got in and out without the real police or any other ne’er doer stumbling upon the scene.
Maddox certainly had a role in the matter. According to my sources it was not as prominent as Helmer believes. My article indicates that others played a role, however, I focused on the important players that I could attest were involved according to my finding.
Cerone was Accardo’s driver, not Mooney.
correct
Black Angelo, My relative ended up hating Willie until the day he died. When Willie’s name would come up, my relative specifically said Willie was not a made guy. However, I took it with a grain a salt. I know Willie was made, it was obvious. He only said it because he hated him because Willie refused his kind gesture ( Which wasn’t completely kind because his Boss, DiFronzo, ordered it ). What’s the point of this posting? The point is, in life, no matter what group of people you’re talking about, when Hatred is involved all bets are off when comments are made. It’s human nature.
Chitowndago & Tony, I heard today that Cicero offered to make SQE but she turned them down. Just Sayin ….
Please be patient, Joe’s checking with Willie to see if Lee was really made.
The Don, check out the piece I just published: http://americannewspost.com/joseph-fosco/3455/outfit-boss-john-difronzo-is-a-double-agent/
He had a son named Sonny. I believe he is now dead. He lived in Florida most of his life and ran his own small restaurant. I understand he was a little slow (mentally).
Who knows how many illegitimate children (if any) Capone could have had?
Joe, I’m sure you’re probably aware of a Catholic church on Lake Street just east Harlem Avenue, as well as the old Dominican priory on Division just off of Harlem Avenue in River Forest. Both of these places have the unique distinction of having on-site exorcists, believe it or not. Perhaps they’ll pay Harlem Playboy a visit some time soon and help expel those Nick Gio-oriented issues he’s been struggling with for the past few years. We can only hope.
lol
lol
I will keep an eye on it.
Mr.Fosco, I just finished William J. Helmer’s book on the St.Valentine’s Day Massacre and he’s of the opinion that Claude Maddox a/k/a John “Screwy”Moore, co owner of the Circus Cafe on North Ave., along with Tough Tony Capezio, happened to be involved with the hit which incorporated many former Egan’s Rats from St.Louis, Fred Burke, is one name of one of the alleged shooters, he was seen driving and almost caused an accident just prior to the massacre. I don’t believe everything I read, so I figured, that this would be the place for me to come and ask. I would like to wish you and all of your faithful followers a Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and Happy New Years…Be Safe!! Love the page, keep up the good work, maybe I’ll see ya at Rocky’s some time, it’s been awhile since I’ve been down.
Dear A,
Please email me information on whatever supposed alias that you claim to know. I am stumped. 🙂
What monthly internet privacy program are you referring to? Again, please email me. I am at jfosco@americannewspost.com.
Paul R had two sons. Anthony (who is deceased) and Paul Jr, who lives in Florida now. As far as decedents in the ‘game’, none of the individuals mentioned above have decedents in the ‘game’. Joey O has at least one nephew who thinks he is a gangster, I honestly think that he believes it. However, he is the only person who believes such information. Old man Cerone’s son has been trying to get into the ‘game’ for most of his life. Unfortunately for Jack Cerone Esquire, he is stuck being a lawyer (though an Outfit connected lawyer).